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Games => TSoG => Topic started by: fourinone on February 24, 2012, 06:13:55 PM

Title: What are Spirits made of
Post by: fourinone on February 24, 2012, 06:13:55 PM
(Though actually, in that particular case, there's a very easy explanation: his spear is clearly spectral as well, so it makes sense that he is capable of interacting with it as if it were a normal object.)

If that's the case, then how is it that he's able to hurt living enemies with it? The same goes for the axes of ghost knights. Despite what it looks like on the sprite, I think it would make more sense if the spear were real, and he were handling it with telekinesis. (Though....if that were true, shouldn't his melee attack's damage be dependent on Psy Power rather than strength? After all, Duvalier's telekinetic capabilities are determined by Psy Power.....gah. What do you think?)


Edit: to change topic title. Ert.
Title: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 24, 2012, 07:53:06 PM
It seems like ghosts can influence aspects of the physical world, though. Baz mentions poltergeists in the first mission briefing. It's possible that his spear can partially solidify or transfer into the material world to harm opponents. Though the telekinesis theory would also work.

I do admit I am quite curious as to how Rajav's strength training works. How would it be different from his psy power? How can a ghost get stronger muscles? I really don't know. D:
Title: What are Spirits made of
Post by: fourinone on February 24, 2012, 08:51:15 PM
It seems like ghosts can influence aspects of the physical world, though. Baz mentions poltergeists in the first mission briefing. It's possible that his spear can partially solidify or transfer into the material world to harm opponents. Though the telekinesis theory would also work.

I do admit I am quite curious as to how Rajav's strength training works. How would it be different from his psy power? How can a ghost get stronger muscles? I really don't know. D:

If I remember correctly, Baz is only aware of spirits because a psy-sensitive servant of his used to complain about them. Though, you may be right that spirits are at least somewhat tangible, seeing that they can be harmed with physical attacks and cannot fly through walls.

As for the strength training, I'm quite puzzled about it too, haha. But recall that Rahel can learn to counterattack after much strength training, the description saying that her reflexes have improved to a point where she can strike back quickly. It seems that the strength stat isn't all about raw power output. Perhaps Rajav isn't actually developing his muscles, but improving his technique.
Title: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 24, 2012, 11:04:58 PM
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defense (mental integrity (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Mental_Integrity)).  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defense (mental integrity) that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
Title: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on February 25, 2012, 01:01:13 PM
I like your description, SmartyPants. It makes sense.

(So much that I created a new topic. :) )
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 25, 2012, 03:26:01 PM
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).

The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

The physical attack in fact does nothing, and a poorly focused psy attack causes a little damage.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 25, 2012, 04:18:40 PM
That does sound more plausible...but then, how do you explain how greater ghosts are completely immune to physical attacks?

And also, if that's the case, we come back to the problem of how Rajav is able to physically attack things with a spectral spear.

(It also seems odd that spirits appear to have material possessions... Luca is clearly in a dress, and Rajav has a cape and shield in addition to his spear, all of which have in the same spirit texture. Perhaps it is because the image spirits project is linked to their own self-perception? So they would look like they view themselves, clothes and possessions included.)

Oh, and, uh, sorry for derailing my own thread, Ert.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 25, 2012, 04:41:54 PM
That does sound more plausible...but then, how do you explain how greater ghosts are completely immune to physical attacks?
Perhaps the less focused and controlled blast can be diverted, with sufficient power and skill.

And also, if that's the case, we come back to the problem of how Rajav is able to physically attack things with a spectral spear.

The spear could be manupulated with telekinesis (He might not even be aware of this, as it may be subconcious), or his spear could be non-corporeal, but the space that it occupies becomes very, very cold (Thanks to spiritual cyro affinity), producing a physical effect. Or, possibly, his 'body' consists of a psy shield, and psy shields can react with the physical world.

(It also seems odd that spirits appear to have material possessions... Luca is clearly in a dress, and Rajav has a cape and shield in addition to his spear, all of which have in the same spirit texture. Perhaps it is because the image spirits project is linked to their own self-perception? So they would look like they view themselves, clothes and possessions included.)

I think so, yes. I mean, it would make a lot of sense, and I can't really think of an alternative.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 05:54:52 PM
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.

I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates. Perhaps, though, the theory doesn't require that the spirit be composed of a dense liquid; it doesn't matter what it's made of (whether it's liquid, pure psy, or something else) as long as the mind shield surrounding it is tangible. As for the weapon, if we assume it's also ethereal, perhaps the mind shield around it is harder? Set is able to create a highly durable solid state shield, right?

The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

My problem with this explanation is that it assumes that the 50% reduction of physical damage is a uniform property of all potential attackers, whereas it being a property of the spirits themselves is far more likely. As you said, people in the telepath world have psy powers of varying degree. Surely Duvalier, a talented psy, would (subconsciously or not) deal a higher percentage of damage with a knife than Qudssi, a man with little to no psy abilities?


Allow me to suggests another theory. This theory assumes that the spirit is merely an intangible disembodied mind of a deceased human. Spirits are entities which cling to their former lives, so much of the habits and brain functions from their lives may remain. When a spirit is attacked by a physical weapon, its mind still thinks it's being harmed, so it may shut down or die from shock. Pulling a quote from the Matrix, "your mind makes it real". It's somewhat like a placebo. Of course, this is less effective than actually being wounded by a weapon, so only half damage is taken. Greater ghosts, which have been spirits for a long time, may have forgotten much of their humanity, no longer associating being struck with something harmful, thus making them immune. (This may also be why the heads of greater ghosts are skulls: they have forgotten their humanity and now perceive themselves as such.)
Also note that for this theory to work, their weapons would have to be real, and wielded with telekinesis.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on February 25, 2012, 06:09:17 PM
That does sound more plausible...but then, how do you explain how greater ghosts are completely immune to physical attacks?

And also, if that's the case, we come back to the problem of how Rajav is able to physically attack things with a spectral spear.

(It also seems odd that spirits appear to have material possessions... Luca is clearly in a dress, and Rajav has a cape and shield in addition to his spear, all of which have in the same spirit texture. Perhaps it is because the image spirits project is linked to their own self-perception? So they would look like they view themselves, clothes and possessions included.)

Oh, and, uh, sorry for derailing my own thread, Ert.

Greater ghosts could be immune to physical attacks because they could be able to maintain intact their idea of themselves, even when a physical weapon is crossing through their imagined position of their body. (An alternative explanation was the ability of greater ghosts to make an opening in the path of the weapon.)

If the spirits' psy powers are able to modify air, they would also be able to act upon physical objects and living creatures. So, I can understand that a spirit may be able to move a chair or punch a person. Of course, if they want to attack someone, it may be easier to use their psy powers directly (in a mind blast, for instance).

(I agree with the ideas in your parenthesis.)

No problem. It's fun when ideas grow and follow new paths.

No problem. When ideas start to grow, sometimes they follow their own path.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 25, 2012, 07:32:57 PM
Quote
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM
While I did consider the 'your mind makes it real' argument, I discarded it because a spirit would know that they couldn't be harmed. Still, an argument in favor would be that there is a gap between knowing and implicitly believing, and that would explain the greater ghost total immunity; they are experienced enough to implicitly believe they are immune.

It's somewhat like a placebo. Of course, this is less effective than actually being wounded by a weapon, so only half damage is taken.

Why? If a being is given shape by the mind, the mind would affect the being to the fullest extent. So no, as a placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing, to a spirit, in my opinion.

The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

My problem with this explanation is that it assumes that the 50% reduction of physical damage is a uniform property of all potential attackers, whereas it being a property of the spirits themselves is far more likely. As you said, people in the telepath world have psy powers of varying degree. Surely Duvalier, a talented psy, would (subconsciously or not) deal a higher percentage of damage with a knife than Qudssi, a man with little to no psy abilities?

Not at all; Duvalier may have more power, but he only channels it to an extent; he believes a certain amount of damage would occur, and his attack isn't nearly as focused as if he had done it consciously.
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.

I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates. Perhaps, though, the theory doesn't require that the spirit be composed of a dense liquid; it doesn't matter what it's made of (whether it's liquid, pure psy, or something else) as long as the mind shield surrounding it is tangible. As for the weapon, if we assume it's also ethereal, perhaps the mind shield around it is harder? Set is able to create a highly durable solid state shield, right?

I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving. In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

Quote
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.

Psy energy has the properties of densely compacted liquid? I feel less clear now than I did before your post.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 25, 2012, 08:14:12 PM
Quote
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.
Psy energy has the properties of densely compacted liquid? I feel less clear now than I did before your post.
When psy energy manifests in a physical form, it has the properties of a liquid.  The only thing that gives shape to the liquid psy energy is the spirit's psychic powers holding the liquid into a human form.  When a spirit fails to maintain its psy defense, then it unable able to hold itself together and it will dissipate.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 09:39:31 PM
Why? If a being is given shape by the mind, the mind would affect the being to the fullest extent. So no, as a placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing, to a spirit, in my opinion.

If you were actually struck in the face by an axe, there would be bleeding and infection and all that good stuff, in addition to the mental trauma. You could die from blood loss or damage to a vital organ. Tell me a placebo is just as effective.  :P

Not at all; Duvalier may have more power, but he only channels it to an extent; he believes a certain amount of damage would occur, and his attack isn't nearly as focused as if he had done it consciously.
Yeah, sorry, I worded this kind of badly. You know, forget about my argument here; it doesn't matter.

I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving.

Rajav's damage output with the spear is determined mainly by strength, not psy power. Even if it were, psy defence would merely create the spear, whereas psy power would handle the force of the stabs, and the telekinesis which guides its trajectory when thrown.

In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

A solid state shield requires PsP to create, but not to maintain. Set can regenerate PsP normally even if a shield is up. If the shield were created around the spear and never taken down, it could be used indefinitely without any more PsP. Plus, Set's solid state shield is wider than and as tall as a human. Even if the spear required PsP to create each battle, it would be trivial compared to that needed for Set's shields.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 26, 2012, 07:27:18 AM
A placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing; to use your argument, their mind makes it real. And corporeal opponents aren't affected by blood loss, nor damage to vital organs (until they die). And infection doesn't play a part in battle, just in whether or not they survive a wound afterward.

I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving.

Rajav's damage output with the spear is determined mainly by strength, not psy power. Even if it were, psy defence would merely create the spear, whereas psy power would handle the force of the stabs, and the telekinesis which guides its trajectory when thrown.

No - you misunderstand. Psy power dictates your psp, so if their body was a psy shield, attacking it would drain psp and not health - in fact, the values would be one and the same. The telekinesis (If that is how the spear is manipulated) would affect the power of the strike. Strength wouldn't have anything to do with it, so that can't be it.

In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

A solid state shield requires PsP to create, but not to maintain. Set can regenerate PsP normally even if a shield is up. If the shield were created around the spear and never taken down, it could be used indefinitely without any more PsP. Plus, Set's solid state shield is wider than and as tall as a human. Even if the spear required PsP to create each battle, it would be trivial compared to that needed for Set's shields.

Moving a solid state shield with your mind - especially if the entire body is a shield - is going to take power - and that would prevent much power regeneration.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 26, 2012, 01:25:57 PM
A placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing; to use your argument, their mind makes it real. And corporeal opponents aren't affected by blood loss, nor damage to vital organs (until they die). And infection doesn't play a part in battle, just in whether or not they survive a wound afterward.
What about getting backstabbed?  The reason backstab damage is worst then regualr damage is because the enemy doesn't know they are going to get hit untill they are hit.  If you are unaware that you are getting hit, then how will the placebo effect work.


I am going to assume that my theory is best since you guys have gave up find fault in it.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 26, 2012, 01:52:21 PM
Presumably, the extra backstab damage could be attributed to the sudden realisation that they have been backstabbed, and the ensuing belief that they are gravely injured. Possibly even a panicked assumption that a terrible wound has been inflicted.

Smartypants, assuming your argument is best because no-one has yet argued with it is a flawed conclusion at best; for all you know, all others percieve your argument to be beneath contestation, rather than above it. For the record, I am not saying this is the case; merely that your line of reasoning was faulty. And, in any case, it was most likely an attempt to get a person to reply to your argument. So I will.

If liquid psy energy can be percieved with your mind, why can spirits only be seen once you know their name?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 27, 2012, 05:59:17 AM
Presumably, the extra backstab damage could be attributed to the sudden realisation that they have been backstabbed, and the ensuing belief that they are gravely injured. Possibly even a panicked assumption that a terrible wound has been inflicted.
That is alot to assume that spirit will always know that they were backstabbed.  You would be assuming that an assassin draw attention to himself during his attacks or that it noticable be hit by arrow from a distance.  Without feeling something real, I don't know how someone would know they are being hit.

If liquid psy energy can be percieved with your mind, why can spirits only be seen once you know their name?
Psy energy is a creation of the mind, so the only way to view the spirit is to see it with one's mind.  By knowing the spirit's name, one's mind is open to seeing the spirits.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 27, 2012, 11:09:24 AM
Hmm. I suggest a more refined alternative. Given that Psy is energy, to percieve it you must be attuned to a particular wavelength. Because fleshy or shadowy beings have their thoughts generated by the same apparatus, the wavelength is the same for each member of the species. But without flesh imposed thought, the wavelength varies between spirits, affected by their perception of their self and their way of thinking. Duvalier can pick up the name because it is broadcast, and with it he attunes himself to their mental pattern.

In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on February 27, 2012, 11:19:32 AM
Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.
This is also a good point into this thread.
I would like to add that if Luca is a product of Duvalier's mind and psy ability, the trainer would probably warn Duvalier that he could do the things he already does without the necessity to create Luca.
On the other hand, how close are Cygnus' duplicates to a ghost?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 27, 2012, 02:17:19 PM
In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
I don't understand why you assume that spirits don't need a body.  Clearly, when a spirit's body is destroyed they can't do anything anymore.  Luca can use multiple skills untill her body is destroyed.  Untill Luca can gather all her psy energy back into a human form, she is useless.

Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.
I would like to add that if Luca is a product of Duvalier's mind and psy ability, the trainer would probably warn Duvalier that he could do the things he already does without the necessity to create Luca.
When it comes to reviving dead teammates, Duvalier does more then Luca.  Luca does soul suck and hold soul charges, but Duvalier is the one who does all of the reviving (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.0).
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on February 27, 2012, 05:48:10 PM
Taking a close look at reviving, then we may say that the revived teammates are no longer who they used to be but what Duvalier saw they were. In that sense, the revived teammates are just like the spirits created by a psy, with the characteristic that they inhabit a physical body that once harboured a (real) person.

Can someone please find a good argument against my previous paragraph? I would prefer some other explanation, but that one seems to fit.  :(
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 27, 2012, 06:16:40 PM
Taking a close look at reviving, then we may say that the revived teammates are no longer who they used to be but what Duvalier saw they were. In that sense, the revived teammates are just like the spirits created by a psy, with the characteristic that they inhabit a physical body that once harboured a (real) person.
That makes sense, but how do the teammates still know things that Duvalier doesn't?  If the revived teammates were only what Duvalier imagened them to be, then the revivied teammates would only know what Duvalier knew they knew.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 28, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
Simple; Duvalier is a mortal incarnation of Yahwah, who doesn't like how the cult is using his holy book. Or Duvalier is Anu, who doesn't like the way the cult is acting. Like Jesus, but in telepath. So he knows everything and has unlimited power, but restrains himself.

Of course, the above is probably nonsense (Though Craig will never tell us so).

Anyway, it seems clear to me that the thing that Duvalier actually does is mould the unformed energy into a roughly compatible form so it takes with the body, and reanimates it, also rejuvenating it. But that is unimortant, as Luca still does something Duvalier can't. Now, back to the main debate:

In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
I don't understand why assume that spirits don't need a body.  Clearly, when a spirit's body is destroyed they can't do anything anymore.  Luca can use multiple skills untill her body is destroyed.  Untill Luca can gather all her psy energy back into a human form, she is useless.

Please don't use the word 'clearly' without presenting solid evidence. I'll argue with the scrap you did present in a moment. There wasn't nearly enough evidence to use 'clearly', and the assuredness of your post comes across somewhat irritatingly when there is nothing whatsoever to be sure of. You didn't even counter my argument, you just posted a fact which supported your view. Clearly.

Luca cannot act because all her power has been consumed sustaining her body - if we take your point, that it is a shield, to be fact.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 28, 2012, 01:12:19 PM
In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
I don't understand why assume that spirits don't need a body.  Clearly, when a spirit's body is destroyed they can't do anything anymore.  Luca can use multiple skills untill her body is destroyed.  Untill Luca can gather all her psy energy back into a human form, she is useless.
Please don't use the word 'clearly' without presenting solid evidence. I'll argue with the scrap you did present in a moment. There wasn't nearly enough evidence to use 'clearly', and the assuredness of your post comes across somewhat irritatingly when there is nothing whatsoever to be sure of. You didn't even counter my argument, you just posted a fact which supported your view. Clearly.
Have you not played the game?  When Luca's body is destroyed in battle, is she still able to Mind Blast or Transfer?  No, after being destroyed in battle, Luca and Rajav can no longer do anything to help the team.  In the next battle Luca and Rajav have reformed their bodies, and then become usefull again.  When the Resistance destroyed Azma's and enemy spirts' bodies, Azma and those spirits were no longer able to Mind Blast or Cyro Blast anyone.  I really don't see how this isn't clear to everyone who has played the game.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 28, 2012, 01:59:01 PM
So, if it isn't that their power is exhausted, why do they not immediately reform and continue fighting? After all, it is just energy contained within a shield, right?

And, incidentally, you may be straying close to becoming irritated - demonstrated by your rhetoric in the previous post. Notably the fact that you use the phrase 'Have you not played the game?'. This implies - or rather, outright claims - that my arguments are obviously flawed. Whatever the case may be, I must respectfully request that you avoid such potentially insulting wording.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 28, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
So, if it isn't that their power is exhausted, why do they not immediately reform and continue fighting?
It must take some time for a spirit to recreate itself.

And, incidentally, you may be straying close to becoming irritated
I think you are projecting.

Notably the fact that you use the phrase 'Have you not played the game?'. This implies - or rather, outright claims - that my arguments are obviously flawed.
Your argument was obviously flawed, because it is "Clearly" shown to people who have played the game that spirits can't do anything once their bodies are destroyed.  Gameplayers learn that as early as Mission 1.  I am sorry if you find me kinda blunt, but when you say something ridiculous, I am going to point out the absurdity in the statement.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on February 28, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
I recall that defeating spirits merely dissipates them. Not necessarily destroys them forever. This would mean that it isn't necessary to exist a psy to recreate them.

The spirits in Baz's basement could also be a creation of Baz. Only when he believed that they were destroyed, he stopped (re)creating them. [It was a recreative activity! :P ]

The fact that the defeated spirits don't appear before us later in the game may be caused for them not wanting to be defeated again and preferred to be elsewhere.

Personally, I don't see strong evidence on either theory (spirits being dead people or being created by psys). I would prefer if spirits would be dead people with unfinished business and, in my opinion, this would fit better the revival abilities (of Duvalier & Luca or of Nelis).
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on February 29, 2012, 09:50:39 AM
And, incidentally, you may be straying close to becoming irritated
I think you are projecting.

Not at all. I even gave a reason for my belief - therefore I am being reasonable, no?

Notably the fact that you use the phrase 'Have you not played the game?'. This implies - or rather, outright claims - that my arguments are obviously flawed.
Your argument was obviously flawed, because it is "Clearly" shown to people who have played the game that spirits can't do anything once their bodies are destroyed.  Gameplayers learn that as early as Mission 1.  I am sorry if you find me kinda blunt, but when you say something ridiculous, I am going to point out the absurdity in the statement.

Indeed, I have no problem with you pointing out absurdity - but you didn't. You pointed out something I which cast doubt on my argument, certainly, but you dismissal of my response hinges on your claim that spirits are projections (Which has not been firmly established, as the source is suspect). So thus, my argument cannot be 'obviously flawed' in a fundamental way, as it required an unsound argument to dismiss.

And please do consider, before posting, if it may be possible for your response to have crossed the boundary between bluntness and rudeness.

It seems that Ert has answered your post quite comprehensively, so I'll leave it there.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 29, 2012, 12:35:00 PM
The spirits in Baz's basement could also be a creation of Baz. Only when he believed that they were destroyed, he stopped (re)creating them. [It was a recreative activity!]
I think that is highly unlikely since Baz has never seen a spirit.  In fact, it has been implied that Baz does not have the Gift.

The fact that the defeated spirits don't appear before us later in the game may be caused for them not wanting to be defeated again and preferred to be elsewhere.
It is possible, but I don't see Azma giving up because he temporarily disappated.

Personally, I don't see strong evidence on either theory (spirits being dead people or being created by psys). I would prefer if spirits would be dead people with unfinished business.
Logically, The Spirits Within reveals what spirits really are. The book was strategically put after Crypt 4 to be a small plot twist.  People seem to want to dismiss The Spirits Within for emotional reasons.  Even though the facts say otherwise, people stubbornly want to believe that spirits are souls remaining to do unfinished business instead of telepathes subconsciously creating artificial beings.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 29, 2012, 03:15:27 PM
Quote
Except defeated spirits never return.
Actually, yes they do; if you go back to the main portion of Baz's warehouse, then return to the cellar, you will fight the spirits again.

Quote
Logically, The Spirits Within reveals what spirits really are. The book was strategically put after Crypt 4 to be a small plot twist.  People seem to want to dismiss The Spirits Within for emotional reasons.  Even though the facts say otherwise, people stubbornly want to believe that spirits are souls remaining to do unfinished business instead of telepathes subconsciously creating artificial beings.
So this is what you're basing your argument on? I'm afraid it's a flawed basis. I don't see it as a plot twist. Look at the game's main narrative: Craig avoids giving a direct answer to the nature of Yahweh and the Cult, instead providing a number of equally plausible explanations and allowing the player to come to their own conclusions. Why wouldn't he do a similar thing with The Spirit Within? The book provides an alternate, non-magical explanation for why spirits exist. You can choose whether or not to believe it, but there is no evidence that shows it to be fact. The book was written by an in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge of the subject -- the wording in the book implies they've never actually seen a spirit themselves, in fact. Does this not make the source suspect?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 29, 2012, 04:03:17 PM
So this is what you're basing your argument on? I'm afraid it's a flawed basis. I don't see it as a plot twist. Look at the game's main narrative: Craig avoids giving a direct answer to the nature of Yahweh and the Cult, instead providing a number of equally plausible explanations and allowing the player to come to their own conclusions. Why wouldn't he do a similar thing with The Spirit Within?
Yes, there was no direct answer to the nature of Yawah, but what spirits are has a direct answer.  The direct answer is from a crypt book called "The Spirit Within".  You are simply cherry picking facts.  If I wanted to cherry pick facts like you, then I can claim that there are currently thousands of assassins guilds and that Sibelius didn't create the Mechanics. 

The book provides an alternate, non-magical explanation for why spirits exist.
Craig has said multiple times there isn't any magic in the game.  That means that the non-magical explanation is the correct answer.

You can choose whether or not to believe it, but there is no evidence that shows it to be fact.
The Spirit Within can explain why spirits think they are dead people with no memories, but the theory on spirits being dead people contradicts the direct source.  One theory fits all the facts, while the other only works by cherry picking.  Obviously the one that explains everything is better.

The book was written by an in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge of the subject -- the wording in the book implies they've never actually seen a spirit themselves, in fact. Does this not make the source suspect?
The words from the so called "in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge" are actually the words of the real-world author who knows everything about the universe he created.   It doesn't make sense for a game/story to lie to the reader unless the truth is revealed later.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on February 29, 2012, 05:23:03 PM
The game creator puts words in the mouth of the characters and in books. Some say spirits are dead people some say they aren't.
I think that what Craig wanted to do when he wrote The Spirit Within was to give us a "reasonable doubt" regarding what are spirits.

Reviving dead characters and the existence of psy powers more effective than common weapons are a kind of magic to me. I believe that Craig used the term magic referring to sorcery - that kind of magic is absent in Cera Bella.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on February 29, 2012, 10:35:10 PM
Some say spirits are dead people some say they aren't.
The spirits only think they are dead because the telepath's subconscious gives them a name and a fake, vague history.  It is like a split personality not knowing that it is a split personality.

I think that what Craig wanted to do when he wrote The Spirit Within was to give us a "reasonable doubt" regarding what are spirits.
That doesn't make any sense.  It is one thing for a writer to leave things ambiguous, but it is foolish to add a theory just to confuse the readers.

Reviving dead characters and the existence of psy powers more effective than common weapons are a kind of magic to me. I believe that Craig used the term magic referring to sorcery - that kind of magic is absent in Cera Bella.
Reviving the dead and the existance of psy powers are all abilities of the mind.  It would make sense that the creation of spirits is also an ability of the mind instead of something magical and otherworldly.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on March 01, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
@SmartyPants:

I know what 'The Spirit Within' says. It's fairly clear. And you can quote it to your heart's content. However, the source is suspect, as you can in no way prove the book to be true or false (for reasons already mentioned and dismissed by yourself using what I can only call cherry picking) - and that is the way Craig prefers it, as evidenced by his avoidance of revealing the existence or lack thereof of Yawah. So, I feel fully able to dismiss an argument based of the aforementioned points.

Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned. So they are either recreated or dissapated (Not sure who'd be recreating them - but then, that's your side of the argument, isn't it?).

A spirit could simply be an accidental projection, or it could be a sentient psy imprint made at the moment of death. Either is possible, in Cera Bella.

One of the important things to do when debating is to avoid dismissing hard facts with non-facts, as it makes you look foolish. It's a good idea to check before doing so - as in the case of the reappearance of spirits.

It is entirely possible that Craig added an alternate theory to provide an alternate explanation, and this isn't foolish, because many people would prefer an alternate explanation to spirits. Believing in either is a choice, disagreeing with you is not 'foolish'.

Thank you for your understanding.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on March 01, 2012, 11:35:17 AM
If we assume that spirits are creations of psys, instead of dead people, why can Luca be a creation of somebody else than Duvalier? Set, for instance - in this case, Luca could be a subconscious creation that does things that Set forbids himself to do but may feel the desire to do.

Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 13, 2012, 02:31:14 PM
Since spirits are creations of psys, instead of dead people, why can Luca be a creation of somebody else than Duvalier?
Luca has to be the creation of Duvalier, because Duvalier's choices are the ones that decide Luca's personality.

Set, for instance - in this case, Luca could be a subconscious creation that does things that Set forbids himself to do but may feel the desire to do.
We don't know who created Rajav, so it is entirely possible for the shy, pacifist Set to have created Rajav to do things Set can't will himself to do such as hurting people and talking to women.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Zackirus on March 14, 2012, 10:17:25 PM
If Luca is a creation of Duvalier, then why does she depart the earthly realm at the end of TSoG? If it were truely the case that she was Duvalier's Psy Energy, then she should remain on earth until Duvalier himself dies, as it says in The Spirit Within. Even more so, if she isn't dead in the first place, where exactually is she going?

Also: just because one can affect a spirit, does not mean that one is the creator of it, I mean, Duvalier can convince Azuma that his name is Zalam, does that mean that Duvalier made him too?

I'm not saying which theory is right or wrong (perhaps they are leftover Psy Energy from deceased telepaths :P) but I will point out that neither side has any solid proof.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 15, 2012, 01:00:12 PM
Where is this so called "proof" that spirits are the people of the dead?  The Spirit Within says directly what spirits are and gives a direct explanation to Luca's sudden change, while there isn't anyone who says spirits are dead people besides spirits who barely known their own names and Baz who has never seen one before.  I am amazied that anyone would find the scholars who wrote The Spirit Within to be more suspect than Luca, the ghost who forgot her own husband's name.  After Duvalier asks Luca what she is, Luca answers, "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 15, 2012, 05:43:12 PM
The point Zackirus was trying to make is that there isn't conclusive proof for either side. You could believe either interpretation, both are equally valid. Stop trying to pass off your interpretation as objective fact. It isn't.

There is an alternate possibility for Luca's personality shift; she gives you one herself if you preserve her original personality. If, for the sake of argument (please take note of my wording there, SmartyPants), we assume that spirits really are the spirits of dead people, then we can still see that they forget memories of their past life over time. Their sense of self is very tenuous, as we can see with the various spirits sprinkled throughout the setting -- and, indeed, very old ones (Greater Ghosts) have forgotten their past selves entirely, and have become nigh-unintelligible. Acting -- taking on a false personality -- is therefore dangerous, as something with so tenuous a personality can easily convince themselves (or be convinced) that they are someone else.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 16, 2012, 04:36:53 PM
The point Zackirus was trying to make is that there isn't conclusive proof for either side. You could believe either interpretation, both are equally valid. Stop trying to pass off your interpretation as objective fact. It isn't.
After studying and researching spirits, the scholars who wrote the The Spirit Within concluded that spirits are created from "a telepath's internal mental processes manifesting externally".  The characters who think spirits are dead people, such as Baz, base their views off of ignorant speculation.  One is clearly more valid then the other.

The way you guys easily dismiss the factual book to heed the words of clueless characters such as Baz and Luca is amazing to me.  It is like you guys are dismissing books that say the sun rises and sets each day because the Earth spins on axis, so you can agree with your friend who says Apollo rides a flaming chairot across the sky each day.

Also: just because one can affect a spirit, does not mean that one is the creator of it, I mean, Duvalier can convince Azuma that his name is Zalam, does that mean that Duvalier made him too?
I do agree that a telepath can metaphorically adopt a spirit that another telepath created, but I don't think that is the case with Luca.  Luca's husband being held hostage is too similar of a plight to Duvalier's parents being held hostage to be a coincidence.  Including Luca loyality, she seems to be customed made to help Duvalier.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Zackirus on March 16, 2012, 07:14:21 PM
As I said before, I am for neither side; and continuing, you have not answered my first paragraph's questions. It is a fact that Luca leaves the earthly realm when the game is over. Your theory cannot explain this, and, until it does, it is not fact, but merely a theory; which is backed up by your own word: 'concluded'. Meaning that, they , the 'scholars' of the book, researched and studied spirits, and, with those observations made a conclusion, which can be subjected to bias even by itself. Furthermore, these scholar's conlusions are based upon their outside observations, where as, Luca/Rajav's conclusions are based upon actually experiencing such 'observations'. That is similar to saying person a knows more about person b than person b themselves knows.

To your point of the book is written by scholars. Where did you obtain that kind of information? How do you know that Al'al or the Beggar didn't write that book? Just because it's written down in a book doesn't mean it's the truth, I mean, their are plently of other books that claim more preposterous things, yet, people believe they are true.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 16, 2012, 08:14:53 PM
If Luca is a creation of Duvalier, then why does she depart the earthly realm at the end of TSoG? If it were truely the case that she was Duvalier's Psy Energy, then she should remain on earth until Duvalier himself dies, as it says in The Spirit Within. Even more so, if she isn't dead in the first place, where exactually is she going?
First, not all of the TSoG endings have Luca "depart the earthly realm".  She can stay if she so chooses to.
Second, I imagen that Duvalier's subconscious could get rid of Luca as easily as it created her.  When Duvalier subconsciously doesn't want or need Luca anymore, then she will cease to exist.

Even more so, if she isn't dead in the first place, where exactually is she going?
If she really was a spirit of a dead person, where exactually would she go?  Your question is too theological for my taste.

Furthermore, these scholar's conlusions are based upon their outside observations, where as, Luca/Rajav's conclusions are based upon actually experiencing such 'observations'.
After Duvalier asks Luca what she is, Luca answers, "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."
Any supposed experiences or observation a spirit claims to have is questionalble because sprits memories are either false or fuzy.  Plus, the outside view is usually the more objective one.

To your point of the book is written by scholars. Where did you obtain that kind of information? How do you know that Al'al or the Beggar didn't write that book? Just because it's written down in a book doesn't mean it's the truth, I mean, their are plently of other books that claim more preposterous things, yet, people believe they are true.
It frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.
Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Zackirus on March 16, 2012, 08:35:27 PM
Yet, when you talk to her in the Headquaters, she says that she will leave this world once her promised is fulfilled. So, if she has choice over what she does, who technically controls Luca? Herself or Duvalier's sub-concsious?

My question isn't asking what happens when you die; the question is asking, if Psy Energy isn't dead, and it leaves it's form, where is it going? Energy cannot be created or destoryed mind you.

While it is true that Spirits have fuzzy details pertaining to their past, how do you explain Rajav's incredible recollection of his past events.

Craig even mentions in a twitter post that, Rajav is an excellent Spearman and Lover; too bad he's dead.


I don't believe that the answer to the question is either Dead People or Psy Energy. I think that, like many things within society/universe, it is a expanse of gray; the truth being a mish-mash of both ideas. Can't we  ALL compromise?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 16, 2012, 09:53:42 PM
Yet, when you talk to her in the Headquaters, she says that she will leave this world once her promised is fulfilled. So, if she has choice over what she does, who technically controls Luca? Herself or Duvalier's sub-concsious?
Luca and Duvalier's subconscious are one and the same.

My question isn't asking what happens when you die; the question is asking, if Psy Energy isn't dead, and it leaves it's form, where is it going? Energy cannot be created or destoryed mind you.
The law of conservation is the basis to why telekinesis isn't possible.  Disappearing psy energy is as impossible as using one's mind to create fire out of nothing.

While it is true that Spirits have fuzzy details pertaining to their past, how do you explain Rajav's incredible recollection of his past events.
What incredible recollection?  The past according to Rajav is either vague factoids or outlandish, untrue tales.

Craig even mentions in a twitter post that, Rajav is an excellent Spearman and Lover; too bad he's dead.
Craig also wrote on the Twitter, "With Crypt 4, I am determined to make you cry; and not in a "To The Moon" sort of way."  Clearly, Craig isn't overly serous when it comes to the twitter.
Plus, Craig didn't want to leave a spoiler on the twitter.  In The Sixth Sense, the viewer is suppose to believe Bruce Willis is alive untill it is revealed at the end.  In TSoG, the player is suppose to believe spirits are dead people untill Crypt 4 is completed.  By leaving spoilers in the twitter, the players experience wouldn't be as great when he learned the truth from The Spirit Within.  Revealing the spirits true nature at the end makes the replay more fun, because the replay allows the smart players to see the connections to how spirits where Duvalier's subconscious the whole time.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Zackirus on March 16, 2012, 10:23:00 PM
I was kidding with the Rajav comment, and actually, you take the 'energy' from your joyful thoughts and convert them into Fire; makes perfect sense.

Your assuming too much, their is no direct proof (if the book theory if correct) that Luca is part of Duvalier's subconscious. For all you know it could be mix of everyone's sub-concsious that Duvalier has a power to control.

Again, as with the ending of TSoG, it leaves it open. Meaning that, either theory works and can be applied to TSoG, similar to the fact that you only find out in the end that Yawheh may or may not exist. TSoG has the ability to let you view a situation and understand it using both perspectives. Admit it, both theories have holes in them; meaning that, it can up to the player to decide what to believe in, in what makes sense to them.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: ArtDrake on March 16, 2012, 11:59:00 PM
I would draw from the way Craig would seem to be carefully not saying much on the matter that he's not trying to make The Spirit Within objective fact.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 17, 2012, 01:21:20 AM
Your assuming too much, their is no direct proof (since the book theory is correct) that Luca is part of Duvalier's subconscious. For all you know it could be mix of everyone's sub-concsious that Duvalier has a power to control.
While The Spirit Within is direct proof that spirits are creations of Telepaths, there isn't anything that says that Luca is directly controlled or created by Duvalier, yet he is the most likely candidate in my opinion.

Admit it, both theories have holes in them; meaning that, it can up to the player to decide what to believe in, in what makes sense to them.
What holes are there in what The Spirit Within says?  The main argument against book is to pretend it never exisited.

I would draw from the way Craig would seem to be carefully not saying much on the matter that he's not trying to make The Spirit Within objective fact.
It is more likely that Criag is trying to spare some people's feelings.  Like how parents don't tell their young children that Santa isn't real, Craig doesn't want to ruin people's denial about what spirits really are.  Based on the stubborn, irrational replies that I get, it is clearly upsetting for some to hear that spirits aren't the souls of the dead.  I, on the other hand, don't want to encourage people to live in their delusional world where the toothfairy is real and bad things never happen.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Zackirus on March 17, 2012, 06:02:21 AM
im2smart4u, other than the single solitary book that mentions the theory, no other evidence is suggested in the entire game nor can Duvalier talk to any spirit to support the book's theory.

Another loophole: if Soul Charges are the 'spirits' of the undead, and spirits are a person's psy energy/power, then how can Duvalier, as Luca is just duvalier, revive people? Does their psy energy act as a mock-defibrillation? Furthermore, how can he revive non-Psy characters such as Qudssi, when he has no energy to speak of?

Finally, I am personally for the Psy-Energy theory, as it is the more pratical one, yet their is not enough evidence to say one side over another is correct. And, if I may speak on the Dead People's behalf, I think that they find it werid that for all of TSoG you are led to believe that spirits are dead people, yet in this one book it says otherwise. It seems werid that Craig would add that little snippet in at the end.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on March 17, 2012, 09:52:46 AM
It is more likely that Criag is trying to spare some people's feelings.  Like how parents don't tell their young children that Santa isn't real, Craig doesn't want to ruin people's denial about what spirits really are.  Based on the stubborn, irrational replies that I get, it is clearly upsetting for some to hear that spirits aren't the souls of the dead.  I, on the other hand, don't want to encourage people to live in their delusional world where the toothfairy is real and bad things never happen.
Even if this is besides the point (and not mentioning the tone), I feel I have to write something about it.
It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
C'mon give us some credit - we all know that TSoG is a game and not an exact replica of reality! We're just trying to extrapolate what the TSoG world is from the info we get from all TRPG games. And have some fun along the way.
There is some wishful thinking in the arguments used for and against each theory - even your arguments, SmartyPants (read again what I quoted from you). That is natural on a debate... we're humans (or so I think.. but perhaps I'm a spirit of a dead cow).
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 17, 2012, 11:21:29 PM
Another loophole: if Soul Charges are the 'spirits' of the undead, and spirits are a person's psy energy/power, then how can Duvalier, as Luca is just duvalier, revive people? Does their psy energy act as a mock-defibrillation? Furthermore, how can he revive non-Psy characters such as Qudssi, when he has no energy to speak of?
Quote from: Craig's description of Soul Suck
Soul Suck – an attack that siphons an enemy's psy defenses into raw psy energy usable by the attacker. For reasons that no one understands, an enemy can actually be killed by Soul Suck once its defenses collapse. When this happens, the attacker captures its energy, which becomes available for later use...
Based on the discription, the captured "energy" doesn't sound like a soul or spirit.  Since Craig has intentionally tried to make spirit techniques into enigmas, there is not much to go on when it comes to how reviving works.  My best guess is that a fitted soul charge (whatever it really is) jump starts the nervous system.
Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
Another theory is that soul charges somehow have fate turn back time for the dead character.

Finally, I am personally for the Psy-Energy theory, as it is the more pratical one, yet their is not enough evidence to say one side over another is correct. And, if I may speak on the Dead People's behalf, I think that they find it werid that for all of TSoG you are led to believe that spirits are dead people, yet in this one book it says otherwise. It seems werid that Craig would add that little snippet in at the end.
That is how a discovery plot twist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagnorisis) works.  TSoG allows the players to assume that spirits are dead people untill the twist after crypt 4 reveals that spirits have been creations of Duvalier's mind the whole time.   To ignore the The Spirit Within in TSoG is like assuming that Bruce Willis's character is still alive at the end of "The Sixth Sense".

It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people, so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on March 18, 2012, 03:47:36 AM
Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
Another theory is that soul charges somehow have fate turn back time for the dead character.
That works for the main character because we have to replay the battle (hopefully with success) but not for the other characters because they will not have the chance to relive the events that lead to their death.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 18, 2012, 06:28:05 AM
There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.
By all means, feel free to compare your opponents to holocaust deniers, that doesn't reflect badly on you at all. =_=

The point at which you are saying such ludicrous things is the point at which you need to take some time off from this discussion, I think. You are taking this far too seriously.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 18, 2012, 01:39:06 PM
Chocobo_Fan, further proves my point by not contributing anything to the discussion.  Lacking any rational counterpoint, s/he decides to directly criticize me instead.

Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
Another theory is that soul charges somehow have fate turn back time for the dead character.
That works for the main character because we have to replay the battle (hopefully with success) but not for the other characters because they will not have the chance to relive the events that lead to their death.
While turning back time isn't my favorite theory, it does make sense.  Based on the powers of Malignus (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Malignus_(Spriggat)), we know psychic control over time is possible.  Psychokinetic shields further protect units from injury, yet there hasn't been any actual supernatural healing in Cera Bella besides reviving.  Soul charges must do more than rewake the body, because returning someone to consciousness wouldn't do much good when the character still has severe burns from a pyro blast or a huge hole in the chest from a spear.  If a fitted soul charge could reverse time for the character, then it could take the character's body back to a time before they received a fatal injury. Edit: the body isn't actually healed during the revival process. 

And I off topic off after Exrtxiem redirect the conversation towards reviving.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 18, 2012, 03:11:48 PM
Quote
Chocobo_Fan, further proves my point by not contributing anything to the discussion.  Lacking any rational counterpoint, s/he decides to directly criticize me instead.

I have already given you my rational evidence and counterpoints. You have dismissed them all with irrational non-arguments and unproven assumptions that you pass off as fact. If you do not wish to discuss this rationally, I see no point in continuing the conversation.

(Also, I'm male, for future reference.)
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: ArtDrake on March 18, 2012, 09:12:38 PM
I don't know if this is at all relevant, but what Smarts is saying is reminding me of the system for human transmutation in Fullmetal Alchemist. Like, you could rearrange the carbon in a dead guy's body if you wanted to make them look nice again, but to make them functional and alive, you have to use human soul energy.

Of course, everything starts to remind you of Fullmetal Alchemist when you've been watching it for five days straight.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on March 19, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
I rather think my summary of the the flaws in your reasoning, SmartyPants, is still valid. And you ignored it completely. Referring back to your earlier statement (that if no argument is presented, your view is, by default, superior), does that not mean that you have conceded?

@SmartyPants:

I know what 'The Spirit Within' says. It's fairly clear. And you can quote it to your heart's content. However, the source is suspect, as you can in no way prove the book to be true or false (for reasons already mentioned and dismissed by yourself using what I can only call cherry picking) - and that is the way Craig prefers it, as evidenced by his avoidance of revealing the existence or lack thereof of Yawah. So, I feel fully able to dismiss an argument based of the aforementioned points.

Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned. So they are either recreated or dissipated (Not sure who'd be recreating them - but then, that's your side of the argument, isn't it?).

A spirit could simply be an accidental projection, or it could be a sentient psy imprint made at the moment of death. Either is possible, in Cera Bella.

One of the important things to do when debating is to avoid dismissing hard facts with non-facts, as it makes you look foolish. It's a good idea to check before doing so - as in the case of the reappearance of spirits.

It is entirely possible that Craig added an alternate theory to provide an alternate explanation, and this isn't foolish, because many people would prefer an alternate explanation to spirits. Believing in either is a choice, disagreeing with you is not 'foolish'.

Thank you for your understanding.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing those who disagree with you to holocaust deniers and global warming deniers.
It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people, so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.
We are arguing with your evidence (Such as it is; one highly suspect book). Not denying its existence. In any case, your argument that the spirits being dead people is unlikely is confounded by the existence of psy powers in Cera Bella - which are also rather unlikely. Games such as this require a suspension of disbelief.

Our replies are not stubborn and irrational, as we are drawing on evidence. I can only surmise that you have an irrational bias against the possibility that spirits are dead people which is forcing you to recycle the evidence you possess, rather than concede that an equal possibility exists and it is a matter of choice. People like you - people who are uncomfortable with the concept of the spirits being dead people - is likely the reason the aforesaid alternative exists.

If you view your previous posts from the objective perspective you idolize, you will realize that this is a mostly civil argument interspersed by your rudeness and increasingly incoherent arguments.

Before criticizing another for direct criticism of yourself, recall that you did just compare them to a holocaust denier.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 23, 2012, 05:05:14 PM
We are rather off topic, so I going to try to get the topic back on path.  If you want to continue to argue that The Spirit Within is conspiracy designed to confuse and lie the reader, then I suggest finding a new topic.

I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence [mental integrity].  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defence [mental integrity] that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates.
I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving. In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.
Spirits are made up of psy energy, which has the properties of a liquid in its physical form.  The only thing that gives shape to the liquid psy energy is the spirit's telekinetic powers densely compacting the liquid into a human form.  Spirits are not held together by mind shields, but rather, spirits need to keep their mental integrity (TRPG1's name for "hit points") to prevent themselves from dissipating.

On the other hand, how close are Cygnus' duplicates to a ghost?
Maybe Cygnus's multiples are made in similar ways as spirits.  While the subconscious creation of a telepath is a spirit, the conscious creation would be a multiple.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 24, 2012, 07:08:05 PM
Hm. This is nitpicky, but I'm curious as to why you would think psy energy functions like a liquid when given physical form. Why not a gas? Indeed, a gas would make more sense, since spirits are described as "dissipating" when defeated. Gases are the only substances that can dissipate, really.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 25, 2012, 10:08:21 AM
Liquid would be better because a highly dense liquid would be more likely to do melee damage than a gas.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on March 25, 2012, 04:52:26 PM
Hm. This is nitpicky, but I'm curious as to why you would think psy energy functions like a liquid when given physical form. Why not a gas? Indeed, a gas would make more sense, since spirits are described as "dissipating" when defeated. Gases are the only substances that can dissipate, really.
In fact any fluid (liquids and gases are fluids) can be dispersed in some other fluid (but not necessarily into any fluid). If the amount of one fluid is significantly smaller than the other it appears that the first fluid disappears into the other.

In that sense, the psy energy would be spread all over the place and the people (humans or not) that have psy skills can transform the psy energy to other typels of energy (producing heat or movement) and transform other types of energy into psy energy (creating cold regions or absorbing kinetic energy reducing the impact created).

Regarding spirits, if they can control the psy energy, they may choose to create solid areas in a shape of a weapon. The edge of the weapons being like ice seems reasonable, due to some spirits using cold attacks.
Under this view, some of the spirits may be more like a dense liquid, thus more susceptible to physical attacks and other spirits may be more like a less dense liquid or even a gas, thus less susceptible to physical attacks.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 25, 2012, 10:55:26 PM
Everything Ertxiem said make sense, but I am a little skeptical spirit weapons being like ice.  If the ghost knight's axes were like ice, then Luca's physical resistance wouldn't work.  I think it more likely that the spirits increase their weapons' density right before they attack.  If the spirit makes the "fluid" weapon dense enought, then it becomes akin to a solid.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on March 26, 2012, 04:21:16 AM
If you read my post again you may find that I said that "The edge of the weapons being like ice seems reasonable". So, I wasn't saying that the whole spirit would be like ice, only the edge of the weapon.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on March 26, 2012, 11:02:55 AM
I understood what you met.  You were saying the part of the weapon that strikes enemy is like ice.  But if the edge of a weapon is like ice, then physical resistance wouldn't do anything against Rajav and Ghost Knights.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Ertxiem on March 26, 2012, 11:57:02 AM
Mmm... I wasn't thinking about spirits fighting spirits... I'll have to think about it...
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 26, 2012, 04:46:39 PM
I think what Ert means is that the edge is merely solidified. If we accept the hypothesis that psy energy (and by extension, spirit bodies) acts like a liquid or gas, then spirits would merely "freeze" the psy energy representing their weapons, causing the energy to solidify and allowing it to interact with physical objects. This would be functionally identical to an ordinary physical attack, not a cold-elemental attack, since the important part is something solid smacking into you, not the freezing temperature. Thus, the spirits' physical resistance would still work.

Edit: I just realized there is support for this -- ghost knights' axes seem to gleam and change somewhat right before they attack. This could represent the solidification.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on April 03, 2012, 06:20:00 AM
His spear could be non-corporeal, but the space that it occupies becomes very, very cold (Thanks to spiritual cyro affinity), producing a physical effect.

The weapon harms spirits, as it is technically a psy cyro attack, but it is wielded at a physical weapon and causes physical damage through cold or ice. Perhaps the cold intensifies, and the gleam is moisture condensing into ice at the moment of the attack. Or perhaps it's always a spectral spear that exists in the same place as the created blade of ice; a physical and psy weapon in the same place.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on April 04, 2012, 03:55:28 PM
Maybe the liquid that spirits are made of have a higher freezing point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_point) than water.  That means that spirit wouldn't have to make itself very cold to be solid.  If the spirit weapon isn't below below 0 C, then it won't do cyro damage.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on April 04, 2012, 07:11:50 PM
The cyro affinity makes it likely that their attacks are cyro based.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on April 08, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
Alternatively, the spirits could simply be pressurizing their energy (or magically solidifying it) instead of freezing it. That would produce the same effect without the cold vs. physical conundrum.

Also, I think spirits only have a cold affinity because "death is cold" is a common trope in media. It seems like affinities only affect purely energy-based powers like the Blasts, anyway.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on April 08, 2012, 11:02:33 AM
But spirits are energy based themselves; they'll probably be affected by their affinity.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on April 12, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
Which would be in line with Greater Ghosts having cold resistance.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on April 17, 2012, 12:38:57 PM
The cyro affinity makes it likely that their attacks are cyro based.
If the attacks had cyro affinity, then they would do cold damage.  If they spirits' melee attacks were considered "cyro", then Rajav's spear throw would harm Greater Ghosts.  Spirits only seem to be harmed if you attack them at a molecular level or with mental attacks.  If the spirits' melee weapons were extremely cold then they would do damage at a molecular level.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: aziz on April 22, 2012, 06:14:57 AM
It could be that rajav's spear is just psy power and when it touches the enemy's brain thinks it is being hurt.so the spear could be just psy power in the shape of a spear connected to rajav.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: bugfartboy on April 22, 2012, 06:40:53 AM
Nice theory. My question is: Wouldn't that make it mental damage?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: aziz on April 22, 2012, 08:00:24 AM
Nice theory. My question is: Wouldn't that make it mental damage?
maybe it is like permanent psy power and does what duvalier does to make the lever move while staying far away from it. :)
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on April 22, 2012, 12:45:38 PM
I think it would make more sense if the spear were real, and he were handling it with telekinesis.

First post.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on April 22, 2012, 04:48:20 PM
It could be that rajav's spear is just psy power and when it touches the enemy's brain thinks it is being hurt.so the spear could be just psy power in the shape of a spear connected to rajav.
If it attacks the brain then why would it do less damage to spirits, and do no damage to greater ghosts?

Maybe the liquid that spirits are made of have a higher freezing point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_point) than water.  That means that spirit wouldn't have to make itself very cold to be solid.  If the spirit weapon isn't below below 0 C, then it won't do cyro damage.
Does no one want to address this?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: aziz on April 22, 2012, 11:05:50 PM
It could be that rajav's spear is just psy power and when it touches the enemy's brain thinks it is being hurt.so the spear could be just psy power in the shape of a spear connected to rajav.
If it attacks the brain then why would it do less damage to spirits, and do no damage to greater ghosts?

Maybe the liquid that spirits are made of have a higher freezing point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_point) than water.  That means that spirit wouldn't have to make itself very cold to be solid.  If the spirit weapon isn't below below 0 C, then it won't do cyro damage.
Does no one want to address this?
I changed my theory a little in a post to bugfartboy.the spear is psy power which is shaped permanently like that and does what duvalier does to push levers from far away.So it deals damage on the basis of how much force Rajav applied.spirits are just psy power it is explained in the game.Either psy imprints of some one who died or the consience of a psy.How could psy power be liquid, solid or gaseous?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: Steelfist on April 23, 2012, 08:52:05 AM
the spear is psy power which is shaped permanently like that and does what duvalier does to push levers from far away.

Telekinesis.

I suppose it might work.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: bugfartboy on April 23, 2012, 07:45:45 PM
Telekinesis.

I suppose it might work.
Agreed. Seems realistic enough. For a game where there's dragon-esque creatures and emotion drinking balls of smoke, that is. :D
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on May 04, 2012, 03:16:18 PM
If the spirits' melee attacks are just telekinetic attacks, then why are does strength instead of psy power determine the damage of Rajav's attack?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: ArtDrake on May 04, 2012, 05:45:26 PM
Because... spirits don't actually have physical strength, but rather are merely projecting onto themselves traits they had whilst alive, and thus when they think they are physically stonger, their assuredness of their own strength leads them to have greater powers of physical telekinesis while they are performing tasks which would require physical strength?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on May 05, 2012, 10:57:35 AM
That doesn't make any sense.  Strength effects melee damage and psy power has no effect on melee, so you conclude that Rajav uses psy powers instead of physical strength?  Have you heard of the saying "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

Also, evidence says that spirits can't be souls of the dead, so spirits were never "alive" in the first place. (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=1106.msg42365#msg42365)
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: ArtDrake on May 05, 2012, 12:51:23 PM
All I'm saying is that if Spirits are physical manifestations of a former human or a telepath's subconcious, then it would make very little sense for them to have literal strength -- after all, what is strength but the amount and condition of muscle fibre in the body, and by extension the ability of mitochondria to manufacture ATP from glucose through complete respiration? -- but do spirits eat? No.

So, I turn to Sherlock Holmes on this one: "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

And yes, of course I've heard that other quotation. What kind of Duck would I be if I hadn't?
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: aziz on May 05, 2012, 11:17:08 PM
If the spirits' melee attacks are just telekinetic attacks, then why are does strength instead of psy power determine the damage of Rajav's attack?
Rajav does not use telekineses the spear is telekineses connected to Rajav's hand Rajav does not use it with his psy power he uses it by his hand so how much damage the spear i.e telekineses does depends on how much force Rajav applied.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: ArtDrake on May 06, 2012, 07:16:06 PM
It's just... the biological workings of the spirits, if they have any, seems significantly different from that of living humans to the point where I'm not 100% sure there's a direct homology or analogy for strength as it's understood in humans.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: SmartyPants on May 07, 2012, 06:36:07 PM
Maybe I am just dense, because I still have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Spirits aren't as tangible as other races, yet they closely resemble humans.  The spirits appear to have arms that look like human arms, and they seem to swing melee weapons the same way as humans.  Since spirits' arms look and act the same way as human muscles, it wouldn't be a stretch to think spirits have muscles somewhat similar to humans.
Title: Re: What are Spirits made of
Post by: ArtDrake on May 08, 2012, 04:08:01 PM
Nah, you're not dense. I'm the one that's not making sense. And aziz appears to be agreeing with you.

I was just having trouble getting over my basic idea that spirits are not dynamic beings, and were rather static in all but their minds with respect to their former self. That is, they could think original thoughts, and improve their ability to concentrate, but couldn't change their appearance in any way.

But if I think of them as, like The Spirit Within suggests, dynamic projections of the telepath's subconscious, then the whole matter of Rajav gaining physical strength makes more sense to me.