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Games => TSoG => Topic started by: SmartyPants on March 23, 2012, 09:20:44 AM

Title: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: SmartyPants on March 23, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
The Spirit Within is a treatise found in the fourth Crypt's cache of books.

The Spirit Within
"Some believe that the mind evacuates the brain at death, and that spirits represent the mind divorced from physical form. But why would only some of the dead return? Why would they only interact with telepaths? A growing body of scholars have accounted for this problem by concluding that spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves. In this theory, a spirit is simply a telepath's internal mental processes manifesting externally. The telepath obsessed with violence conjures violent spirits. The lonely telepath conures companion spirits. And when the telepath dies, so do the spirits that (he alone) sees."
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on March 23, 2012, 01:44:57 PM
This book answered some questions that I had about spirits:

Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

Why did spirits only talk to telepaths?-  Spirits can choose to reveal themselves to humans, so why did the the spirits in Baz's basement only speak to Baz's Gifted servant?  If spirits were holding Fizooz hostage for a presumably long time, then why did Luca only ask Duvalier for help instead of asking everyone in earshot?  After reading The Spirit Within, it makes sense that these spirits only talked to these Gifted individuals, because these Gifted individuals are the ones who created the spirits.

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

Why don't enemy spirits return after being defeated?- Spirits can't be permanently destroyed, so why don't the spirits in Baz's basement continuously counterattack after being forced to dissipate?  If the angry spirits' wills were completely independent, then it doesn't make much sense for them to give up the fight so easily.  Knowing that spirits are created by telepathes, one can conclude that the Gifted Resistance members subconsciously influence the spirits to make the spirits think they have become defeated beyond redemption.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 24, 2012, 07:13:51 PM
This is all well and good, SmartyPants, but still don't think you're clear about the fact that The Spirit Within is not the be-all-end-all in regards to spirits. It is one of many possible interpretations; it provides an alternative, more mundane explanation for the existence of spirits, if people, such as you, don't like the idea they are dead people. However, it is no more plausible than the alternatives -- there is a roughly equal amount of evidence to support both, as we have already discussed at length. Just like the more central theme of Yahwah's existence, the story is being deliberately ambiguous to allow the player to form their own interpretations. There is no absolutely no "correct" interpretation here.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on March 25, 2012, 11:06:58 AM
The Spirit Within says why spirits can't be dead people, and then the treatise explains that spirits are "something created unconsciously by telepath themselves".  You guys keep saying that there are holes in The Spirit Within's theory and that there is loads of evidence to why spirits are dead people, but you guys don't ever present anything to support your claims.  Your main argument the whole time has been that you guys don't trust anything you read including all the Crypt books.

Can you guys stop with the "Yahwah's existence" comparison?  You guys are comparing apples and oranges.  Like the real world, there is no evidence in the games that says there is or isn't a god.  On the other hand, the game presents evidence against the "spirits are dead people theory".
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Ertxiem on March 25, 2012, 05:38:23 PM
I don't really understand why there are only human spirits. The book doesn't address that point and we have no explanation whatsoever for why only humans have spirits (spirits being dead persons or the creation of psys).

Furthermore, in TPA2 we can have a team of non psy humans and yet fight ghosts. On the other hand one can argue that at least one of the humans (our main character in TPA2?) may have psy abilities without noticing (but one can say that with respect to any human it exists in the TRPG world).

Another hard point to address is the fury and stimulate working in ghosts. We may say that the human that created them projects his knowledge and affects the ghost accordingly. If that's the case, there is no need to try to understand the ghost physiology in detail. I feel that this explanation doesn't fit perfectly.

One of the main objections I have to this theory is the number of units the psy human is controlling. Not only he is directing his troops into combat but it's also controlling unconsciously a number of enemies that may even be larger than his team. So, consciously he may control himself and 7 other people on his team, while at the same time he is controlling unconsciously even more enemies!? This is even more surprising if we consider that this happens in people without the gift to see and command like Duvalier does.

I'm still having a hard time to say that one of these theories has a decisive argument in favour of it.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on March 25, 2012, 10:54:05 PM
I don't really understand why there are only human spirits. The book doesn't address that point and we have no explanation whatsoever for why only humans have spirits (spirits being dead persons or the creation of psys).
If spirits are the souls of the dead and spirits can only be humans, then humans are the only race with souls.  If spirits are the creation of telepaths and spirits are only humans, then humans are the only race with the psychology to create spirits.  I will let you pick which is more likely.

Furthermore, in TPA2 we can have a team of non psy humans and yet fight ghosts. On the other hand one can argue that at least one of the humans (our main character in TPA2?) may have psy abilities without noticing (but one can say that with respect to any human it exists in the TRPG world).
I assumed enemy spirits in TPA2 were either created or adopted by other team's owners.

Another hard point to address is the fury and stimulate working in ghosts. We may say that the human that created them projects his knowledge and affects the ghost accordingly. If that's the case, there is no need to try to understand the ghost physiology in detail. I feel that this explanation doesn't fit perfectly.
I don't really see your point.  No matter where you think spirts come from, fury and stimulate don't make sense.

One of the main objections I have to this theory is the number of units the psy human is controlling. Not only he is directing his troops into combat but it's also controlling unconsciously a number of enemies that may even be larger than his team. So, consciously he may control himself and 7 other people on his team, while at the same time he is controlling unconsciously even more enemies!? This is even more surprising if we consider that this happens in people without the gift to see and command like Duvalier does.
You are being too vague about "the psy human" for me completely know who or what you are talking about, so I can only make points on what I do understand.  I don't think telepaths are always in direct control over spirits.  Like static shield, a spirit has some autonomy after being created.  Look at Luca, she pretty much stayed the same after Duvalier created her. Duvalier's subconsciouse will only remade her after a traumatic event.  If you are talking about the resistance fighting ghosts, then I should remind you that there are several Gifted members influencing spirits.  Also, Freud beleives that only 10% of the mind is the conscious part.  That means that one person can theoretically influence more spirits subconsciously than he can control regular team members consciously.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Ertxiem on March 26, 2012, 05:54:09 AM
1 - Only human spirits?
To me, none of these explanations seems likely. Humans, shadowlings and spriggats share psy abilities. I assume that their minds are different (physiologically and psychologically speaking) but with similarities that allow them to communicate and have similar attacks (like mind blast). Furthermore, they all have the ability of hiding their thoughts from others. It doesn't seem too far fetched to assume that they have a subconscious.
On the other side, if we consider the soul the essence of what the person is psychologically speaking, then all races should have souls.

2 - Spirits in TPA2.
According to The Spirit Within, if spirits are unconsciously created, then they shouldn't be consciously controlled by a psy. It's hard to believe that the other team can see them and interact with them. It's even more far fetched to say that the people assisting can see more than a bunch of fighters moving around hitting empty spaces and then claiming that they win.

3 - Fury and stimulate.
It doesn't make much sense to me either. I posted my views in the Fury and Stimulate thread (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=1085.msg42060#msg42060).

4 - Spirits created by a human?
I wrote "psy human" meaning a human with psy abilities (with the gift).
I imagine a static shield being dirt glued together (the psy powers only moved stuff around at the time of creation). It has no personality.
A spirit has at least a partial personality. Considering spirits the unconscious creation of humans, then the human may suffer from schizophrenia and/or dissociative disorder (multiple personality). A greater autonomy from a spirit would mean a more complete alternate personality created by the human. Furthermore, if a human creates multiple spirits to fight him and considering that the spirits may even kill him (or shall I call it suicide him?), then this reveals a severe psychological disturbance. Having this in mind, perhaps the Nameless One should flee from Duvalier or be considered as mad as him since he agrees to train spirits. It would be more wise for the Nameless One to try to bring Duvalier to reality, unless he wanted a delusional leader in command of Ravinale (hey - this could be true if we sided with Nelis in TRPG2).
I wasn't taking about The People's Resistance of Ravinale fighting ghosts.
I'll assume that the 10% of the mind is the conscious part (even if it may be an old theory and recent mapping of the brain (http://www.neure.com/Index.cfm?file=BrainMap.cfm) may attribute functions to different regions, without assigning numbers). Notice that in the 90% of the mind we have the control of vital functions and movement. Depending on how much these take, we may end up with more or less than 10% left to the control of spirits. Furthermore, the number of ghosts we fight against doesn't depend on the personality game stat (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Personality) which seems to be a measure on how many troops Duvalier can command (or perhaps it's a measure of how many personalities Duvalier has! lol).

(I has been a long time since my last wall of text! :) )
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on March 26, 2012, 11:59:41 AM
1)I am not saying that shadowlings and spriggats don't have subconsciouses.  I am just saying their subconsiouses and "internal mental processes" work differently than humans.  Since you believe that all races have souls and spirits are only humans, then you clearly can't believe spirits are the souls of the dead.

2)I am not sure what you are talking about.  Are you saying that spirits are hallucinations only seen by those who created them?  Who are the "people assisting"?

4)
A spirit has at least a partial personality. Considering spirits the unconscious creation of humans, then the human may suffer from schizophrenia and/or dissociative disorder (multiple personality). A greater autonomy from a spirit would mean a more complete alternate personality created by the human.
Most spirits seem to be created with few personality traits and even fewer "memories".  Just look at Fizooz.  He is basicly a memoryless speck of psy energy with a name.  Deeper in Baz's basement, the spirits don't even have any memories.  They are just programed to fight or flight.

Furthermore, if a human creates multiple spirits to fight him and considering that the spirits may even kill him (or shall I call it suicide him?), then this reveals a severe psychological disturbance.
Enemy spirits are subconscious dark emotions personified.  The spirits are created by the telepath, but not directly controlled by the telepath (Who has complete control over their anger, hate, fear, and etc?).  When a telepath's mental processes starts manifesting externally, it is clearly dangerous.  That is probably why the completely-psy races have already had their minds evolve to not create spirits.

I'll assume that the 10% of the mind is the conscious part (even if it may be an old theory and recent mapping of the brain (http://www.neure.com/Index.cfm?file=BrainMap.cfm) may attribute functions to different regions, without assigning numbers). Notice that in the 90% of the mind we have the control of vital functions and movement. Depending on how much these take, we may end up with more or less than 10% left to the control of spirits. Furthermore, the number of ghosts we fight against doesn't depend on the personality game stat (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Personality) which seems to be a measure on how many troops Duvalier can command (or perhaps it's a measure of how many personalities Duvalier has! lol).
The mind and the brain are two different things.  The mind is commonly used to describe the higher functions of the human brain, particularly those of which humans are subjectively conscious, such as personality, thought, reason, memory, intelligence and emotion, while the brain is the part of the central nervous system that lies within the skull.  That means that 10% of the mind is different than 10% of the brain, and therefore your link is moot.  I also don't see why there would be a connection to the number of spirits Duvalier creates subconsciously and the charisma (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Personality) that allows him to command more troops.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 26, 2012, 04:42:21 PM
It is possible that we only see human spirits because we only see them in areas inhabited by humans. Or, if you want a Doylist explanation, because Craig didn't feel the need to design extra sprites. It is entirely possible that we may see the ghosts of other races in future intallments.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on March 26, 2012, 05:31:44 PM
It is possible that we only see human spirits because we only see them in areas inhabited by humans.
Think of all of the shadowlings and spriggats there were in TPA2.  Even though there were tons of spriggats and shadowlings around, there were only human spirits.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 28, 2012, 05:38:04 PM
Duly noted. I refer you to the second half of my post then.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on March 29, 2012, 12:59:28 PM
It is entirely possible that we may see the ghosts of other races in future intallments.
You know an arguement is fundamentally flawed when it is based on speculation of what might be in games that have yet to be created.  With the same logic, one could argue "It is entirely possible that future installments will further prove that spirits are creations of humans psys." 

Since Chocobo_Fan and Steelfist can't present any evidence to support that spirits are dead or to contest that The Spirit Within is correct, it is safe to assume that The Spirit Within is factual.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: Zackirus on March 30, 2012, 09:44:53 AM
Since Chocobo_Fan and Steelfist can't present any evidence to support that spirits are dead or to contest that The Spirit Within is correct, it is safe to assume that The Spirit Within is factual.

That's a logical fallacy, a False Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma), to be exact. You do not know that The Spirit Within and The Spirits of The Dead are the only theories.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Steelfist on March 30, 2012, 11:35:28 AM
Since Chocobo_Fan and Steelfist can't present any evidence to support that spirits are dead or to contest that The Spirit Within is correct, it is safe to assume that The Spirit Within is factual.

I rather think my summary of the the flaws in your reasoning, SmartyPants, is still valid. And you ignored it completely. Referring back to your earlier statement (that if no argument is presented, your view is, by default, superior), does that not mean that you have conceded?

@SmartyPants:

I know what 'The Spirit Within' says. It's fairly clear. And you can quote it to your heart's content. However, the source is suspect, as you can in no way prove the book to be true or false (for reasons already mentioned and dismissed by yourself using what I can only call cherry picking) - and that is the way Craig prefers it, as evidenced by his avoidance of revealing the existence or lack thereof of Yawah. So, I feel fully able to dismiss an argument based of the aforementioned points.

Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned. So they are either recreated or dissipated (Not sure who'd be recreating them - but then, that's your side of the argument, isn't it?).

A spirit could simply be an accidental projection, or it could be a sentient psy imprint made at the moment of death. Either is possible, in Cera Bella.

One of the important things to do when debating is to avoid dismissing hard facts with non-facts, as it makes you look foolish. It's a good idea to check before doing so - as in the case of the reappearance of spirits.

It is entirely possible that Craig added an alternate theory to provide an alternate explanation, and this isn't foolish, because many people would prefer an alternate explanation to spirits. Believing in either is a choice, disagreeing with you is not 'foolish'.

Thank you for your understanding.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing those who disagree with you to holocaust deniers and global warming deniers.
It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people, so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.
We are arguing with your evidence (Such as it is; one highly suspect book). Not denying its existence. In any case, your argument that the spirits being dead people is unlikely is confounded by the existence of psy powers in Cera Bella - which are also rather unlikely. Games such as this require a suspension of disbelief.

Our replies are not stubborn and irrational, as we are drawing on evidence. I can only surmise that you have an irrational bias against the possibility that spirits are dead people which is forcing you to recycle the evidence you possess, rather than concede that an equal possibility exists and it is a matter of choice. People like you - people who are uncomfortable with the concept of the spirits being dead people - is likely the reason the aforesaid alternative exists.

If you view your previous posts from the objective perspective you idolize, you will realize that this is a mostly civil argument interspersed by your rudeness and increasingly incoherent arguments.

Before criticizing another for direct criticism of yourself, recall that you did just compare them to a holocaust denier.

I'll just quote myself.

Again.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 01, 2012, 03:42:08 PM
Your entire quote lacks evidence of anything.  Your quote is full of irrelevant statements like "Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned," and your inconsequential argument that you don't believe any of the Crypt books.

Look, I too can quote random things I wrote:
It frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.
Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: Zackirus on April 01, 2012, 05:57:18 PM
That's a logical fallacy, a False Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma), to be exact. You do not know that The Spirit Within and The Spirits of The Dead are the only theories.

I quote things too, and you have yet to address my point
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 01, 2012, 09:39:45 PM
I didn't address your point, because I only worded my statement as a "false dilemma" to see if could bait a reply.  Unfortunately, the only replies I got were unsubstantial points about what might be in future games and about some people choosing not to believe the crypt books they don't like.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Steelfist on April 02, 2012, 11:30:00 AM
Your entire quote lacks evidence of anything.  Your quote is full of irrelevant statements like "Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned," and your inconsequential argument that you don't believe any of the Crypt books.

These arguments have been brought up and subsequently deflected by your habit of (to use your term) cherry-picking facts. If spirits return, that is evidence that they are not psy projections, as they would require someone to recreate them. This person is not usually present in a situation in which spirits return, so thus they are unlikely to be psy projections. My irrelevent and inconsequential argument did have a point, much to the surprise of all.

I neither disbelieve nor believe the crypt book. And I don't much care what creates spirits. However, your refusal to see that other viewpoints can possess equal validity is the main source of disagreement; I believe that The Spirit Within could be a factual, non-bias book, but equally could be a biased and incorrect account.

You haven't made any concrete points yourself, so I contend that your own arguments are equally insubstantial (No pun intended), if not more so, than mine.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 02, 2012, 12:20:14 PM
If spirits return, that is evidence that they are not psy projections, as they would require someone to recreate them. This person is not usually present in a situation in which spirits return, so thus they are unlikely to be psy projections. My irrelevent and inconsequential argument did have a point, much to the surprise of all.
Isn't the only time that the player sees recreated spirits is when Duvalier and his fellow Gifted soldiers see the spirits.  Wouldn't that mean that the Resistance members are ones who create the psy projections?

I believe that The Spirit Within could be a factual, non-bias book, but equally could be a biased and incorrect account.
It is frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.
Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.

You haven't made any concrete points yourself, so I contend that your own arguments are equally insubstantial, if not more so, than mine.
The Spirit Within makes all the concrete points for me.  It points out how spirits can't be the souls of the dead, and then gives a plausible explanation to what they really are.  The idea that spirits are dead people is solely based on Baz ignorantly calling them "the restless dead" and Luca telling Duvalier "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."  One theory is clearly less substantial than the other.

I would also like to point that you have been unable to explain any of the holes in the spirits-are-dead-people-theory.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Steelfist on April 03, 2012, 06:10:17 AM
If spirits return, that is evidence that they are not psy projections, as they would require someone to recreate them. This person is not usually present in a situation in which spirits return, so thus they are unlikely to be psy projections. My irrelevent and inconsequential argument did have a point, much to the surprise of all.
Isn't the only time that the player sees recreated spirits is when Duvalier and his fellow Gifted soldiers see the spirits.  Wouldn't that mean that the Resistance members are ones who create the psy projections?

The spirits in Baz's warehouse are known to have existed before the resistance occupied the building, and not all of the resistance are full telepaths (Arman, for instance, doesn't display any psy ability as far as I know). Even if this were the case, most spirits just battle with the team, which would mean that the entire team is obsessed with violence. Even Set.

I believe that The Spirit Within could be a factual, non-bias book, but equally could be a biased and incorrect account.
It is frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.

It is frankly ridiculous to believe that calling something 'frankly ridiculous' constitutes an argument.

Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.

I can identify one possible source of bias; Non-psy scholars could resent the power of psys, and thus tried to turn popular opinion against them by implying that they are dangerous and cannot control their own minds. The sources of possible bias, political, financial and personal are limitless. We've seen evidence of discrimination against psys in TSOG, have we not? It could be a cleverly disguised prejudiced treatise.

Duvalier did not spot bias, but that does not mean that the theory is correct. They did not perform experiments (nor can I devise any), so the theory remains unproven.

You haven't made any concrete points yourself, so I contend that your own arguments are equally insubstantial, if not more so, than mine.
The Spirit Within makes all the concrete points for me.  It points out how spirits can't be the souls of the dead, and then gives a plausible explanation to what they really are.  The idea that spirits are dead people is solely based on Baz ignorantly calling them "the restless dead" and Luca telling Duvalier "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."  One theory is clearly less substantial than the other.

This is clearly not the case; neither theory has been tested, and both appear plausable.

I would also like to point that you have been unable to explain any of the holes in the spirits-are-dead-people-theory.

But why would only some of the dead return?

I can't answer this, but the alternative doesn't answer the counterpart either; why do only some psys create spirits?

Why would they only interact with telepaths?

Because, being creatures of psy (Possibly even being sentient psy 'imprints' made upon death) they can only be detected with the gift. Equally, why would projections only interact with psy?
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 04, 2012, 04:50:36 PM
The spirits in Baz's warehouse are known to have existed before the resistance occupied the building, and not all of the resistance are full telepaths (Arman, for instance, doesn't display any psy ability as far as I know). Even if this were the case, most spirits just battle with the team, which would mean that the entire team is obsessed with violence. Even Set.
A) The spirit voices created by Baz's Gifted servant are different from the spirits created by the Resistance members.
B) You need to read the descriptions of Arman attacks.  Both Leap and Mega Stab use psychokinesis to boost physical abilities.
C) They don't have to be obsessed with violence to project violent spirits.  Everyone has violent urges.  Even Set.

I can identify one possible source of bias; Non-psy scholars could resent the power of psys, and thus tried to turn popular opinion against them by implying that they are dangerous and cannot control their own minds. The sources of possible bias, political, financial and personal are limitless. We've seen evidence of discrimination against psys in TSOG, have we not? It could be a cleverly disguised prejudiced treatise.
That sounds like a conspiracy theory.  You sound like the people who say that climatologists made up global warming on behalf of the Democrats to undermind the wealthy oil companies.  Also, if anyone is able to identity prejudice against psys, it would be Duvalier.  Since Duvalier didn't identify any prejudice, there probably isn't any.

But why would only some of the dead return?
I can't answer this, but the alternative doesn't answer the counterpart either; why do only some psys create spirits?
Your inability to answer the question proves my point that spirits can't be dead souls.
Only the most powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits.

Why would they only interact with telepaths? Because, being creatures of psy (Possibly even being sentient psy 'imprints' made upon death) they can only be detected with the gift.
Spirits can choose to reveal themselves to humans, so why did the the spirits in Baz's basement only speak to Baz's Gifted servant?  If spirits were holding Fizooz hostage for a presumably long time, then why did Luca only ask Duvalier for help instead of asking everyone in earshot?
Equally, why would projections only interact with psy?
Because they interect with the people who created them.  Non-psys don't create spirits, so spirits don't interact with them.

See if you can answer these questions:
Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: Steelfist on April 04, 2012, 07:06:24 PM
The spirits in Baz's warehouse are known to have existed before the resistance occupied the building, and not all of the resistance are full telepaths (Arman, for instance, doesn't display any psy ability as far as I know). Even if this were the case, most spirits just battle with the team, which would mean that the entire team is obsessed with violence. Even Set.
A) The spirit voices created by Baz's Gifted servant are different from the spirits created by the Resistance members.
B) You need to read the descriptions of Arman attacks.  Both Leap and Mega Stab use psychokinesis to boost physical abilities.
C) They don't have to be obsessed with violence to project violent spirits.  Everyone has violent urges.  Even Set.

A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.

On another note, you go on to claim that only exeptionally powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits. We've seen no evidence that the team is exceptionally powerful, and while they may be troubled most of them are fairly well balanced and thus unlikely to create spirits.

I can identify one possible source of bias; Non-psy scholars could resent the power of psys, and thus tried to turn popular opinion against them by implying that they are dangerous and cannot control their own minds. The sources of possible bias, political, financial and personal are limitless. We've seen evidence of discrimination against psys in TSOG, have we not? It could be a cleverly disguised prejudiced treatise.
That sounds like a conspiracy theory.  You sound like the people who say that climatologists made up global warming on behalf of the Democrats to undermind the wealthy oil companies.  Also, if anyone is able to identity prejudice against psys, it would be Duvalier.  Since Duvalier didn't identify any prejudice, there probably isn't any.

And you sound like you're trying to draw meaningless comparisons between myself and a group of idiots. Thinly veiled insults may satisfy your ego, but they are not, and never will be, arguments.

In any case, it is a possible source of bias - no matter how unlikely you find it. Duvalier isn't certain to identify prejudice.

But why would only some of the dead return?
I can't answer this, but the alternative doesn't answer the counterpart either; why do only some psys create spirits?
Your inability to answer the question proves my point that spirits can't be dead souls.
Only the most powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits.

Good luck arguing against yourself, above. In any case, why would only powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits? And my inability doesn't prove the point.

Why would they only interact with telepaths? Because, being creatures of psy (Possibly even being sentient psy 'imprints' made upon death) they can only be detected with the gift.
Spirits can choose to reveal themselves to humans, so why did the the spirits in Baz's basement only speak to Baz's Gifted servant?  If spirits were holding Fizooz hostage for a presumably long time, then why did Luca only ask Duvalier for help instead of asking everyone in earshot?
Equally, why would projections only interact with psy?
Because they interect with the people who created them.  Non-psys don't create spirits, so spirits don't interact with them.

But spirits interact with other psys - ones who didn't create them; the team didn't create Luca, but Griffins dialogue states that he has spoken with her, but not to any lengths. And enemies attack Luca, and Luca attacks enemies, so they can see her and do interact with her, in a sense.

See if you can answer these questions:
Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

I can't answer that question, but then neither can you; if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?


Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

Given that they have died, perhaps it takes an unusual person to return - even for vengeance or family; I would have thought the worries of your life wouldn't be to urgent or important. Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed. Moreso than the team, who appear to have suffered comparatively little. Cera-Bella should be awash with projections; there are more than enough Gifted, especially if they all can create multiple spirits.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 17, 2012, 02:44:06 PM
A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.
A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.
B) Also, Craig's attack discriptions say that they are enhanced by psychokinesis.
C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.

And you sound like you're trying to draw meaningless comparisons between myself and a group of idiots.
Like global warming deniers, you disregard the conclusion and facts of scholars out of some prejudice or paranoia.  If you think that makes you like "a group of idiots", then maybe you should stop making conclusions based on conspiracy theories.

On another note, you go on to claim that only exeptionally powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits. We've seen no evidence that the team is exceptionally powerful, and while they may be troubled most of them are fairly well balanced and thus unlikely to create spirits.
The psy abilities of the Resistance members are much greater than TPA2 Black Capes which are considered skilled psys.
While many members of the team outwardly pretend to be doing well, they are clearly internally struggling with personal issues:
*Both Duvalier and Griffin become desturbed by having to kill people.  Or Duvalier enjoys killing people.
*Griffin has been abandoned by his parents and the Guard.
*Rahel is plagued with grief and an extreme hatred of the Cult.
*Arman is fearful of the Black Rose, and self loathes himself for abandoning his family.
*All of the Resistance members feel betrayed by their government, and major anger towards it.

But spirits interact with other psys - ones who didn't create them; the team didn't create Luca, but Griffins dialogue states that he has spoken with her, but not to any lengths.
"Luca? You probably know more about her than I do. I've only actually seen her a couple of times when she hasn't been meditating in her corner back there, and she hasn't really spoken to me.  I think she's mostly just loyal to you."  Being a creation of Duvalier, Luca tends to do almost all of her interactions with Duvalier.

And enemies attack Luca, and Luca attacks enemies, so they can see her and do interact with her, in a sense.
Craig said the Luca and Rajav reveal themselves to fight.  Luca only interacts with someone who isn't Duvalier when it is to help Duvalier achieve his goal.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?
The brains of races aren't that similar.  For example, human psys have to learn to use their psy abilities at places like the Psy Academy, while Naj and La'Man say using elements abilities comes naturally to them.  Unlike humans, spirggats and shadowlings don't have brain/mind to create spirits.

Given that they have died, perhaps it takes an unusual person to return - even for vengeance or family; I would have thought the worries of your life wouldn't be to urgent or important.
Azma and all his fellow thugs are all coincidentally qualify as "an unusual person to return", while no one who dies in TSoG fits the criteria?  That seems highly unlikely.

Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed.
For the hundreth time: Only powerful or troubled psys can create spirits.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: aziz on April 22, 2012, 05:58:19 AM
A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.
A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.
B) Also, Craig's attack discriptions say that they are enhanced by psychokinesis.
C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.
Maybe many people created the spirits in baz's bazement and the spirits found a way to survive after there creator died by remembering their name or becoming a jinn.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?
spriggats and shadowlings are natural born psys so they have better control over their psy powers and hence their conscience doesn't create a spirit.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Steelfist on April 22, 2012, 01:17:37 PM
A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.
A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.
Your evidence being?
C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.
If the team harboured self-destructive urges there are more direct means to kill themselves than creating a spirit to attack the team. It makes no sense.

And you sound like you're trying to draw meaningless comparisons between myself and a group of idiots.
Like global warming deniers, you disregard the conclusion and facts of scholars out of some prejudice or paranoia.  If you think that makes you like "a group of idiots", then maybe you should stop making conclusions based on conspiracy theories.
I question the conclusion of scholars because they have no facts, nor more than circumstantial evidence. I don't disregard; I merely point out that their conclusions are speculation, not fact.
It doesn't make me sound like a 'group of idiots' - you draw meaningless comparisons between myself and these 'global-warming deniers'.
I made no conclusions based on conspiracy theories; I simply pointed out the possibility of a small conspiracy attempting to discredit psys.

On another note, you go on to claim that only exeptionally powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits. We've seen no evidence that the team is exceptionally powerful, and while they may be troubled most of them are fairly well balanced and thus unlikely to create spirits.
The psy abilities of the Resistance members are much greater than TPA2 Black Capes which are considered skilled psys.
I'll concede that they become powerful. With training.
While many members of the team outwardly pretend to be doing well, they are clearly internally struggling with personal issues:
*Both Duvalier and Griffin become desturbed by having to kill people.  Or Duvalier enjoys killing people.
*Griffin has been abandoned by his parents and the Guard.
*Rahel is plagued with grief and an extreme hatred of the Cult.
*Arman is fearful of the Black Rose, and self loathes himself for abandoning his family.
*All of the Resistance members feel betrayed by their government, and major anger towards it.
True, but this should not manifest as an attempt to destroy themselves in the majority of cases.

But spirits interact with other psys - ones who didn't create them; the team didn't create Luca, but Griffins dialogue states that he has spoken with her, but not to any lengths.
"Luca? You probably know more about her than I do. I've only actually seen her a couple of times when she hasn't been meditating in her corner back there, and she hasn't really spoken to me.  I think she's mostly just loyal to you."  Being a creation of Duvalier, Luca tends to do almost all of her interactions with Duvalier.
This proves my point.

And enemies attack Luca, and Luca attacks enemies, so they can see her and do interact with her, in a sense.
Craig said the Luca and Rajav reveal themselves to fight.  Luca only interacts with someone who isn't Duvalier when it is to help Duvalier achieve his goal..
Yes, but there is a reason for this with either explanation.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?
Unlike humans, spirggats and shadowlings don't have brain/mind to create spirits.
Evidence?

Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed.
For the hundreth time: Only powerful or troubled psys can create spirits.
An gifted servant managed to create spirits.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 22, 2012, 05:19:29 PM
A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.
Your evidence being?
According to Baz, his servent only heard the voices of spirits.  He never mentioned her seeing spirits.

C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.
C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.
If the team harboured self-destructive urges there are more direct means to kill themselves than creating a spirit to attack the team. It makes no sense.
The urges aren't self-destructive.  They are just misdirected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(psychology)).

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?
The brains of races aren't that similar.  For example, human psys have to learn to use their psy abilities at places like the Psy Academy, while Naj and La'Man say using elements abilities comes naturally to them.  Unlike humans, spirggats and shadowlings don't have brain/mind to create spirits.
Evidence?
If you want evidence, then just speak to Naj and La'Man in the basement.  All three soul-having races can use psy abilities, yet only humans create spirits.  That means there is something special about human minds that only allows them to have spirits.
Spriggats and shadowlings are natural born psys so they have better control over their psy powers and hence their conscience doesn't create a spirit.
Makes sense.

Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed.
For the hundreth time: Only powerful or troubled psys can create spirits.
An gifted servant managed to create spirits.
She only created spirit whispers and not full fledge spirits.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on April 22, 2012, 06:13:53 PM
I tired of always having an answer to all of Steelfist's questions, while he is unable to answer any of mine.
Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.
I can't answer this

But why would only some of the dead return?

I can't answer this

Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.
I can't answer that question

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.
Given that they have died, perhaps it takes an unusual person to return - even for vengeance or family; I would have thought the worries of your life wouldn't be to urgent or important.
Azma and all his fellow thugs are all coincidentally qualify as "an unusual person to return", while no one who dies in TSoG fits the criteria?  That seems highly unlikely.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: Steelfist on April 23, 2012, 09:18:22 AM
Your answers to these questions have been vague and weak; without substance, evidence or reason. Your conclusions are drawn from the assumption that the book is correct; this does not validate your viewpoint. You recycle evidence and regurgitate it, over and over, without comprehending the boredome you induce.

And, after all of this, you have the gall to say that you 'tire' of having an answer to these questions where I do not - incorrectly, as your answers are themselves insubstantial - and feel able to conclude your superiority despite having demonstrated your inferiority by resorting to insulting comparisons and more directly insulting posts.

You may conclude that if you wish, but whereas I may enjoy debating with civil, reasonable beings, the only reason I remain here as yet (Unlike most other posters, who prefer to avoid your baseless vitriol) is because of my own stubbornness, and I realise my mistake. You are not worth the time it takes to argue with, and I am bitterly sorry for the time I have wasted.

But for your benefit, despite not feeling particularly benevolent towards you, I will tell you this: insults and attrition are not good tactics; they rarely gain you friends, and more rarely will they present you as anything other than foul - this will taint the views you voice. To take, for example, this discussion: I believe that both viewpoints are valid, and there may be other possibilities also. My view has not changed much. Nevertheless, due to your tone throughout, I would be less likely to agree with you than when I began, and I don't doubt that this is evident to anyone else who reads.

In any case, I am withdrawing and do not intend to continue this farce.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on May 04, 2012, 04:21:09 PM
When someone asks the same questions over and over, I going to be consistent with my answers.  If you find it boring that I repeatedly give the same answers, then maybe you shouldn't asking the same questions over and over.

You are full of it.  You claim that you exit the debate because I insulted you.  That would be reasonable if I actually insulted you.  I did point out that your entire argument was based on conspiracy theory which you partly agreed with:
I simply pointed out the possibility of a conspiracy attempting to discredit psys.
Even if it upsetted you that I pointed out that your conspiarcy theory argument is baseless and illogical, you don't have the right to falsely accuse me of insulting people.  Maybe you should act like a grown up, and admit that you are unable to think of reasonable responses, instead making false accusations about people.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: ArtDrake on May 06, 2012, 07:36:37 PM
Huh. Well, since spirits consist of Psy Energy, and cannot be projected or created by non-telepaths, then it would be reasonable to assume that the ability to project/create spirits is proportionate to one's Psy powers. Thus, the Gifted servant presumably had significantly less Psy power than Duvalier, and yet she heard spirits in large numbers. Also, that the spirits showed up in the same place for both the Gifted servant and Duvalier suggests that there is some factor which remained consistent between the two. There are two that I can think of.

The first is Baz. Baz could theoretically have been, when talking about a Gifted servant, actually referring to himself, thus leading to the sustained presence of the spirits for most of Baz's time at the cellar. However, there is no other evidence to support this, so the hypothesis is rejected.

The second is the actual location. I propose that since telepaths are capable of reading mental imprints from various sources, when telepaths percieve the spirits, they actually are seeing the Psy energy manifestation of their subconscious projection of the mental imprints they receive from their surroundings. That is to say, Luca and Azma and Rajav are actual deceased personae, but Duvalier has created an embodiment for the imprints he reads off of surroundings. Thus, the few details the spirits can recall are a result of the inherent impreciseness of the imprints, and are truly the few strongest impressions the telepath can distinguish from the impression. A stronger psy will extract more information, explaining why the Gifted servant only recieved whispers, and why the same spirits will show up in the same places -- for different psys.

This second hypothesis brings together in a none-too-unreasonable way the two other existing hypotheses, does it not? And I would say that the support for it exists in most of the support for either one of the originals.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: SmartyPants on May 07, 2012, 07:31:39 PM
Makes sense that spirits' power is proportional to their creators' powers.  After every crypt the Resistance members abilities grow, so that would explain why the spirits in every new crypt becomes stronger than the ones from the previous crypts.

I find it unlikely that Baz is Gifted, so I don't believe he is the creator of the cellar spirits.

It is a reasonable hypothesis to assume that Gifted humans can use thought impressions (from the living or the deceased) as a outline or blueprint for the spirits they create.  However, I would like to point out that the spirits' personalities and pasts are so simple that it seems likely that spirits can be created without the need for thought impressions. 

Griffin once said about Luca, "I've only actually seen her a couple of times when she hasn't been meditating in her corner back there, and she hasn't really spoken to me." Luca hardly does anything that doesn't directly involve Duvalier; which means her personality lacks any independence from Duvalier's mind.  If Luca was created with a personae of an actual dead person, then she would have a more independent will when Duvalier isn't around.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: ArtDrake on May 08, 2012, 03:58:06 PM
I see your point that most spirits tend not to be complex enough to warrant having been derived from thought impressions, that that they could truly be reflections of inner expectations and anxieties. For example, the three spirits one encounters when obtaining the Titan Shield orb with their power and hostility could have been projections of Duvalier's frustration from a feeling of lack of progress with his attempts to rescue his parents and help his home city.

On the other hand, I would like to think that some spirits have complex enough pasts and memories that they were derived from actual personae, such as Rajav, Luca, and maybe even Iblis.

I guess what's hanging me up on the idea that the spirits are purely projection of subconscious is that Duvalier doesn't find them everywhere. He consistently finds them in hidden, enclosed spaces, for the most part underground, in places where one would naturally expect there to have been deaths, and thus ghosts. So while the idea for the most part appeals to me, I think there has to be a separate trigger for the creation of spirits. Given the spirits' nature of being humanlike, and professing to be deceased, I find it to be a likely explanation that the "trigger" for the creation of the spirits, in conjunction with Duvalier's subconscious desires or anxieties, is Psy-linked traces of the dead: i.e., thought impressions.

So while for some ghosts, the actual deceased individual may not play a huge part in the created spirit, as with lesser ghost fights, where Duvalier creates them in a generic adversarial role, my suspicion is that the individual plays a larger role in other spirits, particularly those having more of a personality.

On a somewhat different note, do you suppose it is those spirits whose identity is more closely drawn from the deceased that have a greater chance to become a jinn?
Title: Re: The Spirit Within
Post by: SmartyPants on May 08, 2012, 09:06:27 PM
On the other hand, I would like to think that some spirits have complex enough pasts and memories that they were derived from actual personae, such as Rajav, Luca, and maybe even Iblis.
Based on what Rajav, Luca, and Iblis have said, the spirits have only a vague recollection of their obscure pasts.  I don't believe Luca's personality is the result of a dead person's thought impressions for reasons I gave earlier, and I believe that Iblis is the personification of the laborers' fears and anger (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=1095.0), but I can't rule out that the possibility that a dead person's thought impression was used as the blueprint to create Rajav.  By having conversations with other resistance members, Rajav has shown signs that his personality has at least some independent from Duavlier's mind.  This could mean that Rajav isn't as exclusive to Duvalier's subconscious as Luca is, or it could mean that the thought impressions that helped created Rajav gave him some independence outside of Duvalier's immediate presence.

I guess what's hanging me up on the idea that the spirits are purely projection of subconscious is that Duvalier doesn't find them everywhere. He consistently finds them in hidden, enclosed spaces, for the most part underground, in places where one would naturally expect there to have been deaths, and thus ghosts.
Somewhat like Freddy Krueger, maybe one needs to believe in spirits for them to be an actual threat.  I remember camping  in the woods as a kid.  At night, I would have to walk some distance between my friend's campsite and my own.  Eventhough I logically knew there was nothing in the woods that was going to hurt me, I felt the need to keep a fast pace while walking between campsites, because I subconsciously feared that there was something lurking in the dark.  I imagen that if I was a psy like Duvalier, my mind would have created my subconscious fear by having a spirit lurk in the woods.  Duvalier has never seen a spirit until Baz told him about them.  If Duvalier was never told that spirits were in the basement, then Duvalier would have never subconsciously believed that spirits are in the basement, and his mind would have never created them there.  The same goes for the librarian saying that the Crypts were haunted.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: ArtDrake on May 09, 2012, 05:28:26 PM
I'm not going to debate you on your first point; I'm pretty much in agreement with you.

However, one rather has to wonder: if the spirits in the cellar are only present because they are reflections of Duvalier's fear, then why did the Gifted servant of Baz hear the spirits in the same place?
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: SmartyPants on May 16, 2012, 07:33:59 PM
However, one rather has to wonder: if the spirits in the cellar are only present because they are reflections of Duvalier's fear, then why did the Gifted servant of Baz hear the spirits in the same place?
Baz's gifted servant probably belived there were spirits is Baz's cellar, so then her mind created the spirit voices in the cellar.  Baz eventually finds out that spirits have plagued the servant, and then Baz tells Duvalier about it.  After being told about spirits, Duvalier believes there are spirits in cellar.  Duvalier's new beliefs create the spirits in the basement.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: ArtDrake on May 16, 2012, 08:02:00 PM
Just so you know, I'm not convinced. However, I can think of no more evidence which would bring to light the nature of Spirits further, so I shall have to remain uncertain on the point of whether Spirits are purely manifestations of fear and anxiety and other basic, subconscious ideas, or whether they are, in fact, based in part on the dead.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: SmartyPants on April 30, 2013, 10:04:20 AM
In a Kickstarter Update, Craig said spirits "are some sort of weird psychic manifestation of powerful psy."  This would explain why a prodigy like Duvalier had way more interactions with spirits than the less powerful psychics.
Title: Re: The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]
Post by: SmartyPants on July 28, 2016, 01:55:21 PM
Apparently there is a trope about a resounding psychic echo (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LivingMemory). "The ghost isn't even the person's soul, but just a spectral imprint left behind by the person's death that's gained a form of sentience. In paranormal fields, these are usually called residual hauntings."