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Games => TSoG => TSoG Wish List => Topic started by: bugfartboy on August 18, 2010, 06:56:37 PM

Title: New Psi Attacks
Post by: bugfartboy on August 18, 2010, 06:56:37 PM
Psys have telekinesis right? So why can't they use it in battle? Some can take shadow, cryo, etc. But maybe some are better suited to use the terrain to damage enemies as physical attack? Small chunks of earth as the elemental blast? Earthquakes as the area? What do you guys think?
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on August 18, 2010, 08:07:06 PM
In the old forums, at least once a week, we tell some nub that there will not be any water, earth, or electricity element because it will overly complicate the game.

If Earthquakes like attack could work like Sandstorm (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Sandstorm) and cause physical damage, then I would encourage such ideas.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: bugfartboy on August 18, 2010, 08:38:52 PM
I didn't mean it as earth is an element. I meant the pure telekinetic force in physical form.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: The Holy namelesskitty on August 18, 2010, 09:40:48 PM
That sounds complicated as in mixing physical attacks with psy powers, but aside from that it seems to have real potential.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: bugfartboy on August 18, 2010, 09:42:22 PM
Something like a telekinetic blast several spaces away the disturbs the surrounding area damaging the target. Not earth, wind, electricity, etc. im2smart4u.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Barzul on August 18, 2010, 09:45:49 PM
Like shields? I'm pretty sure Set's Solid State Shield (Alteration alert!) is made from pure psy energy in a physical form.

Or do you mean like actual Telekinesis, like one of Set's proposed, and I think denied, attacks, Push, where he would use psy energy to move an enemy a space or two back.

I don't think anyone has suggested an attack where on a map with boulders, you are able to lift one of the destructible/or normal boulders and hurl it with only psy energy at enemy for damage. Which would be interesting, but only if it could do far more damage than a regular element blast as there might not be a hurl-able object on every map. Is that more along the lines of what you meant?
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: bugfartboy on August 18, 2010, 09:48:03 PM
Yeah except I meant like the ground, the air, everything would crush the target. Not movig objects (yet).
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Barzul on August 19, 2010, 12:58:34 AM
So its a telekinetic blast that takes absolutely everything around an enemy and uses that to crush her/him? Every molecule of oxygen, carbon dioxide, H2O, whatever other elements float around Cera Bella, dirt, dust, grass, rock, etc. that she/he is nearby? Kind of a switch up from the current attacks... And, as Duvalier needs a psy power level of 10 just to move a single chest from behind Tikki the scorpion, don't you think this is quite over-powered, or you would need a very, very high psy power level to get at it.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Ertxiem on August 19, 2010, 04:35:35 AM
So, what about something in the lines of a Shield Crush. The caster creates a shield around his enemy, trapping him, and reduces his size, thereby crushing the enemy inside. Twisted! (And without the need of a new element - it's all about psy energy.)
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Cypher on August 19, 2010, 04:36:32 AM
A brand new attack!
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on August 19, 2010, 08:44:15 AM
I didn't mean it as earth is an element.
The why is the title named "A New Element"?

I meant the pure telekinetic force in physical form.
I think pure telekinetic attacks were left out because there would be not much to see.  No one wants an attack that they can't see.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: MikeW781 on August 19, 2010, 10:12:46 AM
I like Ert's idea, because it makes sense, is visible, and not very hard to implement. Bugfartboys ideas are less clear and harder to implement.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: The Holy namelesskitty on August 19, 2010, 10:30:43 AM
agreed, and in fact this could pave the way for a whole new genre of attacks.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on August 19, 2010, 02:52:24 PM
I don't think anyone has suggested an attack where on a map with boulders, you are able to lift one of the destructible/or normal boulders and hurl it with only psy energy at enemy for damage. Which would be interesting, but only if it could do far more damage than a regular element blast as there might not be a hurl-able object on every map.
I don't see anyone hurling boulders when Duvalier struggles to pull a switch with his mind.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: mezzoforte on August 19, 2010, 03:01:10 PM
I like that Push idea for Set.  I don't know whoever suggested it originally, but sounds like a fine defensive attack.  He encapsulates the enemy in a shield, like for Shield Crush, but then uses telekinesis to move that shield away by one space.  It makes sense to me, given that the non-psys on the team use telekinesis (to enhance their attacks).  I like it!
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Barzul on August 19, 2010, 03:18:29 PM
I'm actually with you for that im2smart... It would be interesting, but not something I really want to see.

And push, or whatever the attack name was as I don't remember, has been brought up and denied at least twice, mezzoforte.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Ertxiem on August 19, 2010, 06:33:50 PM
I don't recall exactly why, but I have the idea that moving the enemies around is tricky due to the presence of obstacles (juxtapose don't have that problem). The other problem is that pushing the enemy only 1 square away isn't much and the enemy may move and attack again the next turn.
I only found one reference (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=25.msg3782#msg3782) done by KZ commenting the push attack. In there it's referred that there may be moral problems if Set pushes an enemy off a cliff, causing injury.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on August 19, 2010, 08:16:40 PM
The other problem is that pushing the enemy only 1 square away isn't much and the enemy may move and attack again the next turn.
That is the reason it wasn't popular. You move the enemy back a space and then the enemy kills Set on the next turn.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: bugfartboy on August 25, 2010, 07:44:35 PM
Ert got the basis of my idea. I incorrectly named this thread. It wasn't a new element. It was just an old, rarely really used one. I like sheild crush. It holds my idea in it's walls.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: KZ on August 31, 2010, 05:37:59 AM
No need for new element, methinks, but the attack in question has been discussed quite some time ago, when folks weren't happy with the passive nature of Set and his inability to cause even the slightest damage, which could easily turn the tide of battle in the player's favour.
The idea of the push attack, although popular, was rejected by Craig himself on the ground of not fitting into Set's character. Then we proposed to have a cut-scene, where Set is forced to use push in order to save someone, as there is no other alternative (e.g. a huge rock, that no shield can block, falling on Duvalier, and no one is close enough to push him out of the way). Not sure what happened after that, but the idea died down.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Ertxiem on August 31, 2010, 05:21:17 PM
The Shield Crush may be used by Duvalier or by an enemy on us (but not by Set).

One attack that would be fitted for Set (in particular, he describe something in the lines of that) is putting an enemy inside a shield for a few turns (maybe called incarceration). That attack would freeze the enemy for a few turns. The only problem I see with that attack is messing up the enemy attack code. I remember thinking about this attack, but I can't remember if it was formulated.
The description would be more or less the way Push was formulated (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=611.msg18616#msg18616) by mezzoforte, but without moving the enemy.

Perhaps this thread could be renamed "Shield based attacks (formerly called A New Element)".
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on August 31, 2010, 05:44:36 PM
One attack that would be fitted for Set (in particular, he describe something in the lines of that) is putting an enemy inside a shield for a few turns (maybe called incarceration). That attack would freeze the enemy for a few turns. The only problem I see with that attack is messing up the enemy attack code. I remember thinking about this attack, but I can't remember if it was formulated.
Didn't everyone agree not to suggest attacks that mess with enemy AI, because we all know that there isn't a chance that they will be put in the game.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Ertxiem on August 31, 2010, 06:40:16 PM
I'm not sure if freezing an enemy messes up the AI. I don't know how flexible is the new AI with respect to changing the speed of the unit.
For all that I know, the code may already allow that with a new value for, say, the variable that marks if an unit is dead or alive. Or it could be coded with a new variable (a flag) that would code if that enemy should move (if he is free) or be skipped (if he is frozen/incarcerated).
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on September 01, 2010, 08:25:01 AM
I'm not sure if freezing an enemy messes up the AI. I don't know how flexible is the new AI with respect to changing the speed of the unit.
Craig would not include a Dark Spriggat class in TPA2, because Dark Breath would slow down an enemy's speed.  Reducing an enemy's speed to 0 would require him to program every enemy to react differently when hit.  That is alot of AI to reprogram.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: KZ on September 01, 2010, 09:10:25 AM
I suspect that, unfortunately, im2msart4u is right here, and although such an attack would be interesting to have, I think that it might be too complicated to make.
Though, how about this solution- instead of the enemy, a solid-state shield like object appears in the place, with the same hp as the enemy unit, and it is treated as an enemy for a turn. Not sure how complicated would that be to implement, but it will be able to get rid of the issue of messing up the enemy AI, as it doesn't require tinkering with the enemy speed (the issue I do see is the problem of transferring hp of the enemy to the "blob" that replaces the said enemy).

In any case, going back to the initial header of the topic- no need for a new element.


PS
I suggest the discussion continues in the new teammate attacks thread.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: MikeW781 on September 01, 2010, 03:26:37 PM
I'm not sure if freezing an enemy messes up the AI. I don't know how flexible is the new AI with respect to changing the speed of the unit.
Craig would not include a Dark Spriggat class in TPA2, because Dark Breath would slow down an enemy's speed.  Reducing an enemy's speed to 0 would require him to program every enemy to react differently when hit.  That is alot of AI to reprogram.
Well, he could make the lowest speed could get taken 1, then it wouldn't be hard. The Stone Golem, and maybe the Bronze, still have a speed of 1. Also, he has a Dark Spriggat foe, and friendly fire doesn't drop their speed.
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: SmartyPants on September 01, 2010, 04:40:17 PM
Read for yourself. (http://sinisterdesign.freepowerboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=25781#p25781)
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: Ertxiem on September 01, 2010, 04:58:46 PM
I think that Mike was suggesting that, when the speed is reduced, the AI used would be one corresponding to an enemy with that speed. I think it's clever but potentially buggy because the attacks could be quite different from enemy to enemy (since some units have ranged attacks and other don't). (And to complete Mike's idea, I guess he forgot about the Energy Golem that has 0 speed.)

What Craig (or Malignus, back then) said is true for the old AI. If the new AI is done differently, the speed varying problem may have been overcome. For instance, if the AI is coded recursively (but the processing required may turn the game too slow).
Title: Re: A New Element?
Post by: ArtDrake on September 03, 2010, 04:41:15 PM
Duvalier only struggles to pull a switch with his mind when he's not next to it. Psy is much better at enhancing strength and melee powers, and with the addition of Duvalier having Knife, he'll have to have a Str stat. If he has a Psy Power of 15, he should be able to lift ca. a cat's weight, and with a Strength of 10, he might be able to pick up a small table. Combined, he might just be able to lift a boulder.