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Would Noctus be alive in TRPG2 and TSoG?
Would the Shadowling Queen revive Noctus after the Hero killed him?




Due to Noctus's skills in fighting and his expertize at kidnapping, the Shadowling Queen would problably revive the experienced Shadowling Commander.

That's a possibility. Still, Noctus failed her by allowing David to escape. On the other hand, his attitude to the Main managed to bring the Main to attention of Gen. Tastidian and, afterwards, Nelis, and the Main was certainly a highly useful agent for the Shadowling Empire, whilst they could impose their control through the bracelet. So, for accidently revealing the Main's talent, maybe Noctus was given a second chance. After all, we do not know if he was any skilled at kidnapping, and how important David was to the Shadowlings- he could've been simply one of many Psys who were kidnapped by them, and Noctus could've been one of many Shadowlings leading others in those kidnapping missions, and it just so happened that David had excpetional ability.
Though given Noctus' mask, we probably can say with a degree of certainty that he was an experiences commander, and a pretty good fighter, from the boss-fight in TRPG1.

The only thing Noctus failed at was David's protection. Otherwise, he had a bonemask and he got Tastiadan knowing about the Main.

I think that would be an interesting add-on to TRPGSog. Watch the voting, to see how popular the idea might be.

Of course Noctus may have been killed before they get to know about the true powers of the main. After all, David was very important to them.

But then afterword he could have been revived as soon as the Main's power was revealed.

if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down

Who says you take him down easily? I didn't.

my stats were high when i first fought him so it seemed easy to me

Quote from: torugo on February 22, 2010, 08:27:03 PM
if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down

The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.

There can be an extra twist to this: Noctus might've been revived by Nelis after the incident, but could've been killed, along with the other Shadowling Guardians, when the Queen's Palace was attacked by the Main.

Quote from: KZ on February 25, 2010, 10:33:02 AM
There can be an extra twist to this: Noctus might've been revived by Nelis after the incident, but could've been killed, along with the other Shadowling Guardians, when the Queen's Palace was attacked by the Main.

It has not been confirmed that Noctus is a Shadowling Guardian. CraigStern referred to Noctus on the wiki as a "Commander" instead of a Shadowling Guardian. We know Noctus is of high rank in Shadowling Empire's military due to his Bone Mask, but his lack of ridges on the inner edge of the bone mask means that he is of a different rank then the Shadowling Guardians.  Since all the Shadowling Guardians that were killed durring the Hero's last mission had ridges on their bone masks, it is unlikely that Noctus was there.

Alternatively, Noctus could have been a commander under Darkeye when his forces where destroyed by Cerzak. I guess my point is shadowlings had plenty of opportunity to get killed in the military. Even if he was revived, he could have been killed again and have not been revived again. After all, once Nelis was dead, there was no way to revive shadowlings.

im2smart4u: you're right there, but there is also the promotion factor, for instance, as well as simple transfer within the military "departments", so to speak. We don't know whether ridgeless bone mask is of inferior rank to the ridged one, or whether it simply refers to a field commander of equal rank. Thus, Noctus could've either been promoted through deeds unknown to us or transferred to due to, say, loyalty shown, to Nelis. Thus, it's possible that Noctus was there. On the other hand, the Somnus scene has no interaction between one of the Shadow Guardians recognising the Main, so he might not have been there (then again, Tastidian, his superior, was speaking, plus the Main was the enemy, and it would've been a bit strange to speak out of rank and to the enemy).  yogc also provides a good alternative- we don't know how many Shadowlings were killed before wartime action was stopped during the time when the Palace was stormed (as Nelis was too busy defending herself) and when the Shadowlings armies stopped the fight: Noctus could've been killed-in-action during that time period, if he was revived in the first place.
This also birngs up another point not really highlighted, but sssss (I think) brought up the point about why Nelis can't simply revive Gen Drakeye if he gets killed on Lake Alto? And why fate, but not Nelis intervenes to save the Main? It was postulated that if the person is too important for the flow of history, then he/she cannot be revived just like that, not even by Nelis, as it affects too many people around the world.
For the Gen Darkeye part, my explanation can be that if Spriggats were to overrun the Shadowlings, then they would most likely capture Gen Darkeye, use deep scanning on him and prevent him from commiting suicide (is that even possible for Shadowlings?), thus extrating valuable information from Gen Darkeye. Also, why wouldn't Gen Darkeye simply kill himself (apart from the ethically dodgy part of leaving his troops) and then let Nelis revive him? Maybe she cannot revive those who voluntarily take their lives? Hence, the Main is forced to save Gen Darkeye, as there is no other plausible alternative.

Quote from: KZ on February 26, 2010, 06:38:29 AM
For the Gen Darkeye part, my explanation can be that if Spriggats were to overrun the Shadowlings, then they would most likely capture Gen Darkeye, use deep scanning on him and prevent him from commiting suicide (is that even possible for Shadowlings?), thus extrating valuable information from Gen Darkeye. Also, why wouldn't Gen Darkeye simply kill himself (apart from the ethically dodgy part of leaving his troops) and then let Nelis revive him? Maybe she cannot revive those who voluntarily take their lives? Hence, the Main is forced to save Gen Darkeye, as there is no other plausible alternative.

The reason he wouldn't just kill himself is the fact that he is in a battle and he may just be still able to win, you never know what can happen. Also, this was a chance to take out Cerzak, and no shadowling would turn that down.

Quote from: KZ on February 26, 2010, 06:38:29 AMyogc also provides a good alternative- we don't know how many Shadowlings were killed before wartime action was stopped during the time when the Palace was stormed (as Nelis was too busy defending herself) and when the Shadowlings armies stopped the fight: Noctus could've been killed-in-action during that time period, if he was revived in the first place.

There is as much evidence of him being killed in action as there is of him surviving the Shadowling Civil War.

Quote from: KZ on February 26, 2010, 06:38:29 AMThis also birngs up another point not really highlighted, but sssss (I think) brought up the point about why Nelis can't simply revive Gen Drakeye if he gets killed on Lake Alto? And why fate, but not Nelis intervenes to save the Main? It was postulated that if the person is too important for the flow of history, then he/she cannot be revived just like that, not even by Nelis, as it affects too many people around the world.

It is more likely that the Queen needs a corpse to revive anyone.  If General Darkeye was slayed by Cerzak, his body would be destroyed beyond revival and to prevent that, the Main is sent on a rescue mission. If the Main is killed, his leaderless team would likely be killed; leavy nobody left to recover the slayed bodies for revival.

Quote from: KZ on February 26, 2010, 06:38:29 AMFor the Gen Darkeye part, my explanation can be that if Spriggats were to overrun the Shadowlings, then they would most likely capture Gen Darkeye, use deep scanning on him and prevent him from commiting suicide (is that even possible for Shadowlings?), thus extrating valuable information from Gen Darkeye. Also, why wouldn't Gen Darkeye simply kill himself (apart from the ethically dodgy part of leaving his troops) and then let Nelis revive him? Maybe she cannot revive those who voluntarily take their lives? Hence, the Main is forced to save Gen Darkeye, as there is no other plausible alternative.

Since the final battle between the Shadowling Empire and the Dissidents was a diversion, it is unlike the Spriggats "were to overrun the Shadowlings".  It is more likely that the Shadowling Forces surrendered after their Queen was slain.  When the Queen died, most shadowlings lost the reason and the will to fight.  If the Dissidents wanted peace with the Shadowlings, they would not torture leaders like Darkeye.

True, a lot of this is based on speculaion only. I am just highlighting different possibilities of what might've taken place.

I am not convinces that the Queen needs a corpse to revive anyone, since the Main is slain in the same way as everyone else, and she can revive all other teammates, be they Shadowlings, Spriggats or humans (even Golems) with ease. After all, if the Main is killed by a Mind Blast, then the body will bear no visible damage on it- it will be just the synapses giving way. The opposite would be when a teammate is burned to a crisp with Fire Breath, yet can be revived depsite the body being in a bad condition.


I am pretty sure both sides used deep scans and extraction techniques, as this was not a war "to win hearts and minds", but a war of survival. Under Nelis, Spriggats had virtually no chance of appealing to the general Shadowling populace, but what they could do is fight their battles in a manner that wouldn't lead to them being called "ravaging murderers" (ie no civilan massacres, etc). I agree that the Shadowling forces surrendered when she was slain, but it might've taken some time for the message to reach them- after all, they didn't have a direct psy contact with her (cf Shadowboxer's comments in TRPG2) and they'd need a messenger to deliver the news, and they then had to believe it, and then they had to decidce that fighting on was pointless. Also, although the Shadowlings reverse-engineered the Energy Golems by end of mission 7, only Nelis had them so far and the Spriggats would've still had the Energy Golem advantage on the battlefield for a short while (and they had Psy Academy help as well), so in the short run, the Spriggats might've not fared too badly.

Back on topic of Noctus being alive: I guess we'll have to wait and see if any further mention will be made of him in TSoG, as otherwise this question will remain open-eneded. There is always the possibility of him being involved with the Shadowling Loyalists.

Quote from: KZ on February 28, 2010, 09:26:36 AM
I am not convinces that the Queen needs a corpse to revive anyone, since the Main is slain in the same way as everyone else, and she can revive all other teammates, be they Shadowlings, Spriggats or humans (even Golems) with ease. After all, if the Main is killed by a Mind Blast, then the body will bear no visible damage on it- it will be just the synapses giving way. The opposite would be when a teammate is burned to a crisp with Fire Breath, yet can be revived depsite the body being in a bad condition.

If the Main dies, the leaderless team would also die. With the entire team dead, nobody will be able to bring the bodies to Somnus for revival.  Revive doesn't just bring people people back to life, it completly heals them too.  Despite the damage, if there is a corpse, the Shadowling Queen can revive anyone to full health.

Quote from: KZ on February 28, 2010, 09:26:36 AM
I am pretty sure both sides used deep scans and extraction techniques, as this was not a war "to win hearts and minds", but a war of survival. Under Nelis, Spriggats had virtually no chance of appealing to the general Shadowling populace, but what they could do is fight their battles in a manner that wouldn't lead to them being called "ravaging murderers" (ie no civilan massacres, etc). I agree that the Shadowling forces surrendered when she was slain, but it might've taken some time for the message to reach them- after all, they didn't have a direct psy contact with her (cf Shadowboxer's comments in TRPG2) and they'd need a messenger to deliver the news, and they then had to believe it, and then they had to decidce that fighting on was pointless. Also, although the Shadowlings reverse-engineered the Energy Golems by end of mission 7, only Nelis had them so far and the Spriggats would've still had the Energy Golem advantage on the battlefield for a short while (and they had Psy Academy help as well), so in the short run, the Spriggats might've not fared too badly.

The Spriggats would not have won the battle until the Shadowlings surrender.  The Dissidents had their Energy Golem workshop destroyed and the Empire is now producing their own Energy Golems(who says Nelis is the only shadowling with energy golems?). Both Tastidian and Dean Lukas knew that the Spriggats didn't stand a chance against the Empire's forces, so it is doubtful that Spriggats "were to overrun the Shadowlings". If the Spriggats would have won the battle before word that the queen is slain reaches them, then why does the Shadowling Empire win the war if the Main sides with Tastidian? After the battle, the war is over.  With the war over, there would not be any reason to torture the losing side.



As a human kidnapper and after being killed by a human, it is very likely that Noctus would join the Shadowling Loyalists.

Quote from: im2smart4u on February 28, 2010, 10:01:03 AM
If the Main dies, the leaderless team would also die.

I definitely disagree with this statement. There are many occaisons when the Main dies accidently in battle, but the opposing forces are almost wiped oout, with the entire team alive- had the player been allowed to continue the battle, the player would've definitely won. This arises mostly from carelessness, or long difficult battles. Here are two contrasting examples: the Main gets killed during mission one against the Mech Captain, with only the latter remaining and all teammates alive and in full health- the Mech Captain doesn't stand a chance; the Main gets accidently killed from one of the three Spriggats assassins, when there is only one Spriggat remaining with 4 health and 3 teammates surviving. In both cases, the team can take the corpse and quickly leave the place. In the latter case, there are no other hostile forces in the area (the patrols have already been cleared and only 3 assassins were waiting for them), so it shouldn't be a problem for the team to back track (there is a clear path leading them out of the Great Forest).
Also, and these are killer examples, I think: the Main can die battling Giant Bugs in Somnus (ok, they can eat the body, but!), the Main can get killed by the Vargant or by Flavian. In two latter cases, this happens right under Tastidian's nose (he'll know, through the Slave Bracelet, if the slave is killed, and quickly hop on to find out why, and that's a very short trip to both Flavian's and to the Vargant's), the Main is killed with Mind Blasts, which would definitely leave the body intact. Flavian, being x-military, would not dare eat the dead Main, as he's the property of one of the most senior (if not the most senior) Shadowlings in Shadowling military, and he's just outside on the street- Flavin is no use to Tastidian, but the Main is. Also, Tastidian will react quickly to the Main getting killed and be there in no time at all, to prevent any feasting on the corpse (this applies equally well to the Vagrant case). Hence, the corpse is not the point in case of Nelis (but not Luca).


If the Main sides with Tastidian, it says that "eventually" the war is won, but that does take time, so in the long run, the tide of war goes against Spriggats, but in the short run, they might've managed to put up enough resistance for Shadowlings to get the message across to them.



I agree, Noctus and Shadowling Loyalists seem to be very well suited for each other.

Quotewhy does the Shadowling Empire win the war if the Main sides with Tastidian? After the battle, the war is over.  With the war over, there would not be any reason to torture the losing side.

Well, the academy was the last hope for the spriggats. If the academy remained, and the hero had been killed by the queen (so she would still be alive), the odds would be against the spriggats 3 to 2, but the spriggats might still have had a chance. After all, why would the Psy Academy side with the spriggats if they knew the spriggats were doomed, and that siding with the spriggats would just result in more academy deaths. Remember, Dean Lukas didn't know the hero was freed from Tastidian. If the spriggats were hopeless, the academy probably would have remained neutral and would have just tried to get more guards.

The academy sided with the Dissidents, because they didn't have any other alternative.  With a high rate of kidnapping, it is unlikely that parents would enroll their children at the academy.  The only way to stop the kidnapping, thereby saving the academy, was to side with the Empire's enemy.


I don't see Noctus doing well in civilain life.

QuoteThe academy sided with the Dissidents, because they didn't have any other alternative.  With a high rate of kidnapping, it is unlikely that parents would enroll their children at the academy.  The only way to stop the kidnapping, thereby saving the academy, was to side with the Empire's enemy.

You're missing the point. If the academy knew the Dissidents were going to lose even with their intervention, they probably wouldn't have sided with the losing side. They probably would have increased security and maybe had some white capes guarding or patrolling the schools. Most people don't side with the side they know is going to lose. They just try to cut their own losses.

Your missing my point.  The Academy's kidnapping problem would drastically decrease the number of students who want to attend the school.  Without students there would not be any money to pay for teachers, guards, or anything else.  They chose to side with the losing side, because there wasn't another alternative like "cut their own losses".  They knew that the Dissindents were unable to win in conventional warfare, so that is why they planned to assassinate the Queen.


The Majority are leaning towards reviving Noctus. Does anyone want to stay on topic and explain why they would or would not revive Noctus?

Indeed, im2smart4u is right here, about the reasons for the Psy Academy to side with the Shadowlings- the latter weren't seeking an peaceful co-exitence, by disrupting the flow of life in the academy by constant kidnappings, and the only real threat to the militaristic expansion of the Shadowlings were the Spriggats. What is of interest is who esle did the Shadowlings fight in the last few thousand years, as evidenced by the book Anya read (as Spriggats were conquered, and Shadowlings didn't fight with humans from northern Cera Bella)?

As a military commander, it would probably be more efficient for Noctus to be revived and have his experience with him, rather than waste time in schooling a new commander. Then, Noctus might survive the end of the Shadow War and play a significant part in the Shadowling Loyalist movement. Thus, here are reasons, from in-game and from game-making points of view which might make it worth reviving Noctus.

The Academy is probably located near some human cities. And the rulers of those cities wouldn't like to see humans kidnapped by other races and would probably declare war on the shadowlings, thereby bringing the Academy to the war.

I thought the academy tried to remain neutral with other forces, including other human cities. The only reason they allied with the spriggats was because they had no choice.

Quote
As a military commander, it would probably be more efficient for Noctus to be revived and have his experience with him, rather than waste time in schooling a new commander.

The queen might have seen Noctus as a failure of a commander since he was unable to prevent psy from sneaking into his camp and killing him. She might have thought that it would be better to get a new commander to replace him (since the shadowlings probably had some commander who just finished training) than to revive what she considered a failure.

Quote from: Ertxiem on March 06, 2010, 08:12:26 PM
The Academy is probably located near some human cities. And the rulers of those cities wouldn't like to see humans kidnapped by other races and would probably declare war on the shadowlings, thereby bringing the Academy to the war.

The map in TRPG1 doesn't show any nearby cities.  The closest landmarks are the Great Forest and a large bog.

Quote from: yogc on March 06, 2010, 08:48:50 PM

QuoteAs a military commander, it would probably be more efficient for Noctus to be revived and have his experience with him, rather than waste time in schooling a new commander.

The queen might have seen Noctus as a failure of a commander since he was unable to prevent psy from sneaking into his camp and killing him. She might have thought that it would be better to get a new commander to replace him (since the shadowlings probably had some commander who just finished training) than to revive what she considered a failure.

Yes, he failed his mission, but he was defeated by a very powerful psy.  I am sure the Queen can cut Noctus some slack, because he lost to the person who defeats Cerzak.

Indeed, from the way the Dean explained it, the Shadowlings put the Psy Academy in a no-win situation, so, even knowing that the Spriggats were losing the war, they sided with them (going via "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" route).

Given the Main's exceptional ability, and the fact that Noctus did notify Tastidian, but simply overestimated his own powers to keep the Main whilst Tastidian travelled, I think it's fair to say that such a mistake may be forgiven- plus, this is a unique, hubling experience which would be good for an over-confident commander. Hence, he might not be considered a failure per se, plus he had first-hand experience of fighting the Main directly- this info can be valuable to the Shadowlings.

As for nearby cities: methinks there is no large human settlement near Lake Alto or the Great Forest, save for human villages, with the Psy Academy being the biggest human settlement in the area- the world map, as im2msart4u correctly puts it, shows no major settlement around the Psy Academy.

Quote from: im2smart4u on February 22, 2010, 09:06:14 PM

Quote from: torugo on February 22, 2010, 08:27:03 PM
if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down

The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.

im2smart4u i was just saying the possiblities it was possible for noctus to be brought back to life
but it was also possible she didnt bother because shadowlings hate humans and its also possible that the queen wouldnt try to bring him back after you beat him beat him

Quote from: torugo on March 07, 2010, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: im2smart4u on February 22, 2010, 09:06:14 PM

Quote from: torugo on February 22, 2010, 08:27:03 PM
if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down

The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.

im2smart4u i was just saying the possiblities it was possible for noctus to be brought back to life
but it was also possible she didnt bother because shadowlings hate humans and its also possible that the queen wouldnt try to bring him back after you beat him beat him

Yet she was okay with reviving the Main's fallen human comrades?  I don't think she has enough scorn towards humans to not revive a shadowling commander.

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 07, 2010, 07:43:28 PM

Quote from: torugo on March 07, 2010, 07:30:03 PM

Quote from: im2smart4u on February 22, 2010, 09:06:14 PM

Quote from: torugo on February 22, 2010, 08:27:03 PM
if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down

The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.

im2smart4u i was just saying the possiblities it was possible for noctus to be brought back to life
but it was also possible she didnt bother because shadowlings hate humans and its also possible that the queen wouldnt try to bring him back after you beat him beat him

Yet she was okay with reviving the Main's fallen human comrades?  I don't think she has enough scorn towards humans to not revive a shadowling commander.

probably because you were tasdidians slave the queens most trusted commander and she would make an exception for him

But Noctus was under Tastiadan too. So if she cut slack for the Main because he was under Tastiadan, she would for Noctus too (also probably a bit faster, cause he isn't a slave and all).

It all depends, I guess, on how she viewed those Shadowlings who failed her once: there are many examples ih history where there is more tolerance given for a valiant enemy effort (or that of an allied troop) then for the failings of one's own troops. I suspect that the Main was of much greater significance to her plans than Noctus was, and I am not sure if she'd be willing to cut more slack to a talented human than her very own commander.
There is also the twist about Noctus being revived, but not surviving the Shadow War. Personally I think that she might as well have revived Noctus, but given him a temporary demotion, and that there is a chance he survived the end of the Shadow Wars, such that we might catch a glimpse of him in TSoG.

Quote from: Frosty on March 08, 2010, 10:11:56 AM
But Noctus was under Tastiadan too. So if she cut slack for the Main because he was under Tastiadan, she would for Noctus too (also probably a bit faster, cause he isn't a slave and all).

once again ill say noctus lost to a human in which she hates and tastidian probably forgot all about him and just left him to the afterlife. my guess the queen has to know if someone is dead to bring them back

So she would cut more slack for his killer, when she wouldn't cut slack for someone higher up than him who he killed. If I were Tastiadan, I would've personally killed the Main right in his room. But then again, I am the most selfish thing in the world.

I think it would make a great plot device to keep Noctus alive. After all, there would always be a chance the queen would revive Nocuts, and it would be nice to see Noctus again (even if it is just to kill him).

Quote from: KZ on March 08, 2010, 02:44:20 PM
There is also the twist about Noctus being revived, but not surviving the Shadow War. Personally I think that she might as well have revived Noctus, but given him a temporary demotion, and that there is a chance he survived the end of the Shadow Wars, such that we might catch a glimpse of him in TSoG.

It is pointless logic to assume that Noctus is revived and then assume he is killed before game players see him again.

Quote from: torugo on March 08, 2010, 03:16:56 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 08, 2010, 10:11:56 AM
But Noctus was under Tastiadan too. So if she cut slack for the Main because he was under Tastiadan, she would for Noctus too (also probably a bit faster, cause he isn't a slave and all).

once again ill say noctus lost to a human in which she hates and tastidian probably forgot all about him and just left him to the afterlife. my guess the queen has to know if someone is dead to bring them back

There is not any proof that she hates humans.  If she hates humans as has much as you describe, then she would kill them instead of enslaving them.

Quote from: yogc on March 08, 2010, 05:07:18 PM
I think it would make a great plot device to keep Noctus alive. After all, there would always be a chance the queen would revive Noctus, and it would be nice to see Noctus again (even if it is just to kill him).

I agree completely.  The next time he is killed it would be for good.

Nelis views humans as cheap, dispensable tools. They are valuable to her while they last, but after that there isn't much point to them. She doesn't hate them, she just doesn't care.

Quote from: Frosty on March 08, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
So she would cut more slack for his killer, when she wouldn't cut slack for someone higher up than him who he killed. If I were Tastiadan, I would've personally killed the Main right in his room. But then again, I am the most selfish thing in the world.

at the end of chapter 1 tastidian wanted you as a slave because you defeated noctus. bringing noctus back probably slipped tastidians mind

How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

Quote from: yogc on March 08, 2010, 09:16:15 PM
Nelis views humans as cheap, dispensable tools. They are valuable to her while they last, but after that there isn't much point to them. She doesn't hate them, she just doesn't care.

So she views humans, as most people view cattle?  She doesn't care if they live or die as long as they serve a purpose.  But with that logic, i would not persecute someone for being killed by a cow. So why would she not revive Noctus for being killed by a very power human?

Humans are disgraceful, they are the enemy, and they are tasty. and yes, you might persecute them. Would you not think it would be kind of funny to hear that somebody was frightened of a chicken killing them?

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 04:53:14 PM
How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

i meant he lost interest in noctus seeing he wasnt strong enough to be of any use

If a ranch hand of mine were killed by a cow, I would view him as quite incompetent (probably). I would still revive him, even if it would be just to humiliate him.

Quote from: torugo on March 09, 2010, 07:31:07 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 04:53:14 PM
How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

i meant he lost interest in noctus seeing he wasnt strong enough to be of any use

Noctus captured David, I'd say he had some use.

Quote from: yogc on March 09, 2010, 07:31:55 PM
If a ranch hand of mine were killed by a cow, I would view him as quite incompetent (probably). I would still revive him, even if it would be just to humiliate him.

I am gland you conceded and will "still revive him".
You should cut people some slack.  Cattle (humans more so) can be very dangerous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7qA_zyJYFw).

that's a bull. not a cow. well, a male cow, but still not the peaceful harmless animal that spends most of its time consuming grass

Quote from: Zhampir on March 09, 2010, 08:20:29 PM
that's a bull. not a cow. well, a male cow, but still not the peaceful harmless animal that spends most of its time consuming grass

Well Noctus was killed by a very powerful psy; not a regular human.
Cattle can be dangerous (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/302/21/2314).

Yes, a psy that got so powerful because his mastered allowed it to train
Reasons why I wouldn't revive him
1. He lost control of a slave
2. He allowed the slave to train to become stronger than himself
3. He allowed the slave to return to the Psy Academy
4. He allowed the slave to leave with his entire team and lead a revolt against the queen.

Well, a ranch hand should be careful when dealing with cattle...
The main was never Noctus's slave. He never had control of the main anyways. He couldn't possibly have prevented the main from returning to the psy academy and revolting. He had no clue what the main was planning. Are you talking about Tastidan?

yes, sorry I had them confused.

Well, number one made sense, because he lost control of David, which he had limited control of.

Quote from: Zhampir on March 09, 2010, 08:38:09 PM
Yes, a psy that got so powerful because his mastered allowed it to train
Reasons why I wouldn't revive him
1. He lost control of a slave
2. He allowed the slave to train to become stronger than himself
3. He allowed the slave to return to the Psy Academy
4. He allowed the slave to leave with his entire team and lead a revolt against the queen.

But even though this is Tastiadan, those events don't have to happen. A rebellion could have popped up between TRPG2 and TSoG causing everything to be set right.

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: torugo on March 09, 2010, 07:31:07 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 04:53:14 PM
How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

i meant he lost interest in noctus seeing he wasnt strong enough to be of any use

Noctus captured David, I'd say he had some use.

yeah noctus captured an inexperienced psy who hadnt even been enrolled in the academy yet

Quote from: torugo on March 10, 2010, 06:00:42 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: torugo on March 09, 2010, 07:31:07 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 04:53:14 PM
How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

i meant he lost interest in noctus seeing he wasnt strong enough to be of any use

Noctus captured David, I'd say he had some use.

yeah noctus captured an inexperienced psy who hadnt even been enrolled in the academy yet

He was able to capture David from a fortress full of heavly armored swordsmen and extremely power psy warriors.

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 11, 2010, 08:32:20 AMHe was able to capture David from a fortress full of heavly armored swordsmen and extremely power psy warriors.

I don't think that's right: he was able to capture David in a village that was not protected by any powerful Psy whatsoever, as evidenced by Uncle Flastaff telling the Main that only David could see the Shadowlings- meaning that even if there were any more Psys in the village, they were too weak to break through the Shadowlings' obfuscation.
He did not capture David from the Psy Academy. Tastidian, on the other hand, managed to do just that.


Anyhow, Noctus may have underestimated the Main, but the Main was such a valuable find to the Queen that I think she just might've allowed Noctus to be revived and to use his experience to do less important tasks (if he failed once,he may fail again, so he has to start with something simpler).

Plus, David might have been experienced. Right away, he was already scanning for Noctus. Plus, anyone who puts on the slave braclet becomes more powerful, so experience doesn't matter.

Quote from: Frosty on March 11, 2010, 10:52:34 AM
Plus, anyone who puts on the slave braclet becomes more powerful, so experience doesn't matter.

Both the Shadowling Queen and Noctus were killed by the Main when he didn't have the slave bracelet on.

Quote from: Frosty on March 11, 2010, 10:52:34 AM
Plus, David might have been experienced. Right away, he was already scanning for Noctus. Plus, anyone who puts on the slave braclet becomes more powerful, so experience doesn't matter.

david never got a slave bracelit on. his mind was jacked from his body

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 11, 2010, 08:32:20 AM

Quote from: torugo on March 10, 2010, 06:00:42 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: torugo on March 09, 2010, 07:31:07 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 04:53:14 PM
How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

i meant he lost interest in noctus seeing he wasnt strong enough to be of any use

Noctus captured David, I'd say he had some use.

yeah noctus captured an inexperienced psy who hadnt even been enrolled in the academy yet

He was able to capture David from a fortress full of heavly armored swordsmen and extremely power psy warriors.

noctus was not alone he had an entire camp with him too and the academy is a small place if david were kidnapped there then i think everyone would know

Quote from: torugo on March 11, 2010, 04:51:33 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 11, 2010, 10:52:34 AM
Plus, David might have been experienced. Right away, he was already scanning for Noctus. Plus, anyone who puts on the slave braclet becomes more powerful, so experience doesn't matter.

david never got a slave bracelit on. his mind was jacked from his body

It never said he didn't have it on.

Quote from: torugo on March 11, 2010, 04:54:59 PM

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 11, 2010, 08:32:20 AM

Quote from: torugo on March 10, 2010, 06:00:42 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 07:55:01 PM

Quote from: torugo on March 09, 2010, 07:31:07 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 09, 2010, 04:53:14 PM
How could your one of your commanders dying slip your mind?

i meant he lost interest in noctus seeing he wasnt strong enough to be of any use

Noctus captured David, I'd say he had some use.

yeah noctus captured an inexperienced psy who hadnt even been enrolled in the academy yet

He was able to capture David from a fortress full of heavly armored swordsmen and extremely power psy warriors.

noctus was not alone he had an entire camp with him too and the academy is a small place if david were kidnapped there then i think everyone would know

KZ already corrected im2smart4you because David was captured in a village.

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 11, 2010, 02:53:27 PM

Quote from: Frosty on March 11, 2010, 10:52:34 AM
Plus, anyone who puts on the slave braclet becomes more powerful, so experience doesn't matter.

Both the Shadowling Queen and Noctus were killed by the Main when he didn't have the slave bracelet on.

When you remove the slave bracelet, you don't lose power. But when you put it on, you do. (as said by torugo here (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=64.0))

QuoteWell, number one made sense, because he lost control of David, which he had limited control of.

Noctus only lost control of David after he was dead.
If he had somehow managed to keep control of David after he died, I would be confused.

BUT he could have won the battle against the Main (notice I said limited control).

I would guess Nocuts was used to slaughtering the opposition with dark vortex, and underestimated the main's abilities.
However, he still did tell Tastidan about the main before he died, so he didn't screw up everything.

So to put things straight, he messed up by underestimating the main. But, to repent for that, he contacted Tastiadan right before his death. Its your own opinion. Did he mess up too bad, or was telling Tastiadan about the main enough repent? That is what the "Is Noctus alive?" question circled around.

Tastiadan probably allowed the Main to attack Noctus, because Tastiadan wanted to test the Main against a very powerful shadowling.  Tastiadan created a win-win situation.  If Noctus losed the fight, Tastiadan would revive his fallen commander and gain a new one?  If Noctus won, then Tastiadan would keeps his shadowling commander and still be able to use David. 

I don't really think that Tastidian was expecting the Main to go to the camp to rescue his brother, much less he thought that the main would be able to beat Noctus.
Remember that at that moment, the Main was simply unknown. If Tastidian thought that the Main had the power he revealed to have, he surely had made him a trap.

noctus said that tastidian had warned him about having to expect you

Oh. I didn't remember that. Well, it's reasonable to assume that Tastidian knew that the Main had the Gift. And it's also reasonable to assume that Tastidian predicted that David's family and friends might try to save him. However, I don't believe that Tastidian was aware of the real power of the Main. If he was, he would make sure that Noctus wasn't alone and wouldn't allow the Main to leave the camp.

thats a good point he probably expected just davids family to come and get killed by noctus but backfired and you ended up killing him. tastidian just stayed one step ahead just in case and highjacked davids thoughts so that he won either way. pretty smart

Quote from: NoctusWalk no further. I am called Noctus, Eater of Darkness.  His greatness Tastidian warned me to expect you, flesh creature. Already, I have notified Him and He is on His way.

If Tastidian assumed Noctus would win, then why would he feel the need to come and visit?  Tastidian felt the power of the Main and allowed the Hero a chance to prove himself by letting him fight Noctus, Eater of Darkness.  Because Noctus's death was caused by a trail set for the Main, Tastidian would forgive Noctus and allow him to be revived by the Queen.

One doesn't gain a title like "Eater of Darkness" without some impressive military feats.

Nevertheless, I think that Tastidian believed that Noctus could win. Otherwise, he would have made further precautions to be assured that the Main and David couldn't leave the camp after the test with Noctus. Two worthy slaves are better than one ;)
Tastidian going to the Psy Academy surely required huge amounts of obfuscation and a well placed shadowport. And he probably didn't have the necessary power to capture both David and the Main in one go... or he was so impressed with the powers of the Main that he decided that the Main should be rewarded somehow, by granting the Main the possibility of letting David be free.

Anyway, I agree that Noctus proved himself worthy of being revived by Nelis.

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 12, 2010, 08:52:42 PM

Quote from: NoctusWalk no further. I am called Noctus, Eater of Darkness.  His greatness Tastidian warned me to expect you, flesh creature. Already, I have notified Him and He is on His way.

If Tastidian assumed Noctus would win, then why would he feel the need to come and visit?  Tastidian felt the power of the Main and allowed the Hero a chance to prove himself by letting him fight Noctus, Eater of Darkness.  Because Noctus's death was caused by a trail set for the Main, Tastidian would forgive Noctus and allow him to be revived by the Queen.

One doesn't gain a title like "Eater of Darkness" without some impressive military feats.

i thought noctus was just bragging because he wasnt that strong

Remember, Noctus is as strong as you are health wise. Plus, Noctus probably was a commander who told soldiers what to do from behind the lines most of the time. A good general is not always a good soldier.

Quote from: torugo on March 13, 2010, 11:22:37 AM

Quote from: im2smart4u on March 12, 2010, 08:52:42 PM

Quote from: NoctusWalk no further. I am called Noctus, Eater of Darkness.  His greatness Tastidian warned me to expect you, flesh creature. Already, I have notified Him and He is on His way.

If Tastidian assumed Noctus would win, then why would he feel the need to come and visit?  Tastidian felt the power of the Main and allowed the Hero a chance to prove himself by letting him fight Noctus, Eater of Darkness.  Because Noctus's death was caused by a trail set for the Main, Tastidian would forgive Noctus and allow him to be revived by the Queen.

One doesn't gain a title like "Eater of Darkness" without some impressive military feats.

i thought noctus was just bragging because he wasnt that strong

Noctus said, "I am called Noctus, Eater of Darkness."  Since others called him "Eater of Darkness", he is not bragging, but instead "Eater of Darkness" is his epithet.

Quote from: yogc on March 13, 2010, 12:43:00 PM
Remember, Noctus is as strong as you are health wise. Plus, Noctus probably was a commander who told soldiers what to do from behind the lines most of the time. A good general is not always a good soldier.

Commanders lead their forces, while Generals are behind the scenes.

A commander would be a person in charge of any number of troops. There are battalion commanders, company commanders, etc. Not all commanders lead troops directly into battle. It would be very hard for a battalion commander to lead all 300-1300 of his troops into battle and still effectively command them. Instead, the commander may stay back and observe the battlefield. If Noctus was the commander of his group of shadowlings, he could possibly fight, but his job would be to command.

Since there is only about 20 tents in the camp and Noctus is stronger then any shadowling in the camp, it is very likely that Noctus would lead his forces when it came to a fight.

He would have to have a lot of personality to command all 20 troops at one time during a battle while he himself fights.

Quote from: yogc on March 13, 2010, 02:56:45 PM
He would have to have a lot of personality to command all 20 troops at one time during a battle while he himself fights.

Who says he doesn't have alot of personality?
With as much as 20 troops, he probably has at least one second-in-command.

I was thinking that he had a few shadowlings that he would tell what to do, and they would tell the shadowlings they were in charge of what to do.

Quote from: CraigStern on March 06, 2010, 10:04:07 AM
New music has been added to the players! The track "Taste My Power" is loosely based on Noctus's boss music from TRPG1.

Why would Craig base music on Noctus's? Either He really liked Noctus's boss music, or he looked at this thread and decided he would be revived. You never know.

Interesting points made. Can someone have a look at the TRPG1 dialogue again, please (the one with Noctus, and the one with Tastidian). 'Cause I got the imrpession that Noctus did notify Tastidian of a cheeky fleshling coming into his camp (don't forget, for money Noctus allows Main to leave, certainly not considering him a worthy or un-beatable opponent) and when Tastidian explains his presence to the Main, it seems that he is doing so in retaliation- although he was notified, I suspect he was not expecting that the fleshling in question would actually dispose of Noctus. Impressed, he makes a personal visit to the Main. And as mentioned above, it's highly unlikely that Tastidian wanted to risk getting into the Psy Academy more than once- surely if he expected the Main to beat Noctus, he would've arranged for hismelf to be near the Shadowling Camp and to take the Main as soon as Noctus is done with. Then he could keep both (as stated before), instead of going for one only.

The fact that Noctus has a nickname shows that he probably was a highly succesful and known soldier (see his current rank) before, so I am also convinced, like im2smart4u, that he has valid bragging rights. The way he behaves with the Main just shows how sure of himself he is. I don't really think it would matter whether Noctus would lead the Shadowlings or not- after all, they're on a stealth mission, so it's likely that they operate in small groups, with many sub-commanders controlling each small unit. Think how special ops are structured.

Frosty- good catch, that. Very good point to make. Apart from Craig's obvious like of perfecting music, I think you might be onto something there! (Woudln't it be sweet to come up against Noctus in an anti-loyalist mission?)

Noctus coming back that would make a a great easter egg in servants of god, I only have one question though, by that time do you think Noctus might actually have horns?

Quote from: KZ on March 14, 2010, 04:32:50 PM
Interesting points made. Can someone have a look at the TRPG1 dialogue again, please (the one with Noctus, and the one with Tastidian). 'Cause I got the imrpession that Noctus did notify Tastidian of a cheeky fleshling coming into his camp (don't forget, for money Noctus allows Main to leave, certainly not considering him a worthy or un-beatable opponent).

Here is the quote:

Quote from: Noctus
Walk no further. I am called Noctus, Eater of Darkness. His Greatness Tastidian has warned me to expect you, flesh creature. Already, I have notifed Him and He is on His way.

Maybe Tastidian already knew about you, and just warned Noctus that you may be coming.

Very curious that, indeed. Maybe he managed to get past memories from David, and thus knows of a gifted Psy sibling. It may be a trap to lure the Main in, but I very highly doubt that even Tastidian was expecting such outcome.
What's interesting is that all those titles are more or less dropped in TRPG2.

Quote from: Zackirus on March 15, 2010, 07:18:29 PM
Noctus coming back that would make a a great easter egg in servants of god, I only have one question though, by that time do you think Noctus might actually have horns?

I think horns on Shadowlings are like facial hair on humans.  Some people have easier times growing them then others.

Indeed, and Craig said that there are in no way related to ranking or power of any given Shadowling- both generals having a horn in TRPG2 is pure coincidence.
Plus, it doesn't seem like it's a very common thing, it's more like having a very rare hair or eye colour, rather than simply speed of growth of facial hair.

Could Horns on Shadowlings be something that grow over time and you are not born with them

I think that from previous discussions quite some very long time ago it was hinted that they do, indeed, grow with time, and Shadowlings aren't born with them.

Update from Craig: 'Maybe'

Quote from: Zackirus on March 20, 2010, 03:48:41 PM
Update from Craig: 'Maybe'

It is not much of an update when he said "Maybe ;)" to the same question in the Old Forums.

Still, the fact that he repsonded at all is already very telling: at least it's something that he might be considering doing, and it might be affected by how badly people want to see him again.

that wink makes me feel awfully hopeful lol

Back to Noctus being revived, in addition to all the good reasons here, I also think it would be logical for him to be revived (If the queen had the opportunity to); for why would the queen not revive a valued commander, while she revives random humans (and even a spriggat!) on the main's team.  She does this without hesitation, so why should she think twice about reviving a shadowling?  If I had thought Noctus had failed me, I wouldn't just have him killed, he would still have uses, and if I was really displeased with him, I would punish him by having him serve under the human who defeated him  ;)

I think even by us putting this forum into the board will want to make Craig put Noctus back in for TSoG

Quote from: Zackirus on March 21, 2010, 02:32:26 PM
I think even by us putting this forum into the board will want to make Craig put Noctus back in for TSoG

That is also a factor to consider- popular demand sometimes does wonders ;)

Given that Craig mentioned that he is working on Somnus art, we might find out soon whether or not Noctus is alive.

How do you know Noctus would be in Somnus?

I don't, but given that in Somnus we'll have many Shadowlings and NPCs, chances are we will find out whether or not Noctus will be in the game (using pure deduction and speculation, I think Somnus is the most logical place for start of a side quest, or any news bearing relation to Noctus).

I'd like to see him, or at least hear mention of him. It would be a nice little Easter Egg.

I think that has been said before.

I believe it was, and it certainly has support- from the looks of it most people would like to find out Noctus' fate in light of the fact that Nelis could've revived him! And it's a nice tie-in with TRPG1.

Methiks that for now there isn't much more to say, really- we'll have to wait and see, wait and see. ;)

Do most people want to see Noctus again?

http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=339.0//
Lets see!

It seems as though, assuming he is alive, Noctus would come back as a Loyalist, seeing how egotisic he was when you meet him. If he isn't alive, however, that's just about it, he isn't alive. :D

Quote from: Duskling on June 10, 2010, 06:21:45 PM
It seems as though, assuming he is alive, Noctus would come back as a Loyalist, seeing how egotisic he was when you meet him.

That statement pretty much sums up the general opinion folks, myself included, expressed over the duration of the thread. So, let's find out when TSoG comes out. ;)

for me the hero was weak maybe when he got defend he flee away  ???

Welcome to the forums!
Read the rules, use proper grammar and punctuation, play the games, share your ideas and enjoy your stay!
-KZ-

Quote from: lordnova on August 17, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
for me the hero was weak maybe when he got defend he flee away  ???

Kindly do use proper grammar and punctuation.  And do make your statement clearer. Are you trying to say that, in your opinion, Noctus got revived, then fled the scene during the Battle of Somnus at the end of TRPG2 and is thus still potentially alive?

Quote from: lordnova on August 17, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
for me the hero was weak maybe when he got defend he flee away  ???

KIRBY1000S POST:Maybe......or, Maybe not. I Dunno.