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This is all well and good, SmartyPants, but still don't think you're clear about the fact that The Spirit Within is not the be-all-end-all in regards to spirits. It is one of many possible interpretations; it provides an alternative, more mundane explanation for the existence of spirits, if people, such as you, don't like the idea they are dead people. However, it is no more plausible than the alternatives -- there is a roughly equal amount of evidence to support both, as we have already discussed at length. Just like the more central theme of Yahwah's existence, the story is being deliberately ambiguous to allow the player to form their own interpretations. There is no absolutely no "correct" interpretation here.

Hm. This is nitpicky, but I'm curious as to why you would think psy energy functions like a liquid when given physical form. Why not a gas? Indeed, a gas would make more sense, since spirits are described as "dissipating" when defeated. Gases are the only substances that can dissipate, really.

So basically, spirits are functionally identical to how they were in life, but are simply made up of a different substance? Perhaps...but that substance change is pretty significant, since psy energy is intangible and ethereal. Something that stimulates chemical releases in an ordinary, physical human body could conceivably work the same way for a body that's made up of magic intangible energy, but it's a bit of a stretch. Even if that energy is molded into having the exact same impressions of glands, neurons, etc., they're made up of completely different materials and would therefore likely operate on completely different principles.

Chocobo_Fan, further proves my point by not contributing anything to the discussion.  Lacking any rational counterpoint, s/he decides to directly criticize me instead.

I have already given you my rational evidence and counterpoints. You have dismissed them all with irrational non-arguments and unproven assumptions that you pass off as fact. If you do not wish to discuss this rationally, I see no point in continuing the conversation.

(Also, I'm male, for future reference.)

There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.

By all means, feel free to compare your opponents to holocaust deniers, that doesn't reflect badly on you at all. =_=

The point at which you are saying such ludicrous things is the point at which you need to take some time off from this discussion, I think. You are taking this far too seriously.

I do have to say that Nelis is more geared towards offense. Cygnus is fairly passive, and his abilities are quite gimmicky. However, Nelis also has fewer skills. I doubt the phantom armors would be an issue, though. Their slowness would easily allow Cygnus' multiples to pick them off. On the flipside, Cygnus' barriers are pretty useless, since Nelis can easily destroy them from a distance (and I'm pretty sure that Holy Blast is powerful enough to destroy one in one hit). Cygnus also has less health if I recall.

I suppose it would be a close call. Both have a chance at winning. I suppose I would tentatively lean towards Nelis, though. She has more raw power, I'd say.

The point Zackirus was trying to make is that there isn't conclusive proof for either side. You could believe either interpretation, both are equally valid. Stop trying to pass off your interpretation as objective fact. It isn't.

There is an alternate possibility for Luca's personality shift; she gives you one herself if you preserve her original personality. If, for the sake of argument (please take note of my wording there, SmartyPants), we assume that spirits really are the spirits of dead people, then we can still see that they forget memories of their past life over time. Their sense of self is very tenuous, as we can see with the various spirits sprinkled throughout the setting -- and, indeed, very old ones (Greater Ghosts) have forgotten their past selves entirely, and have become nigh-unintelligible. Acting -- taking on a false personality -- is therefore dangerous, as something with so tenuous a personality can easily convince themselves (or be convinced) that they are someone else.

In my country, the mother language class is more about grammar and interpretation than philosophy and rhetoric. Philosophy has it's own class for students around 15 years and there isn't any class that deals with rhetoric.

Yes, I did always find that weird about English class. It feels like a strange hodgepodge of multiple subjects. Some days we learn grammar, some days it's reading comprehension, some days it's philosophy...none of the other classes are so schizophrenic. o_O Still, though, I do think rhetoric is pretty important. If the English class hodgepodge problem is ever resolved and the classes are separated (and I hope they are), I do hope that at least one year of rhetoric will be required. It's a good skill to have.

And yeeeeeeah, the US' education system is also kind of a flaming train wreck in general...

Have you tried to capitalized your P in the smiley in the end of your post?

That was intentional actually. I despise smileys.

Actually, now that I've completed my second playthrough, I have to say I prefer Malis to Arman. Arman has a better damage output, but he has no range, and again, he goes down really fast -- total glass cannon. Malis can't deal quite as much damage, but a shadowblast to the back is still nothing to sneeze at, and she's far more durable -- mainly because she has Feedback. I also find that it's actually easier for her to get out of sticky situations, since Shadowport lets her roughly mach (or even surpass) Arman's mobility, and she can use it more often than Arman can Leap, due to her higher base PsP. Plus she can fly. Pity she doesn't have an equivalent of Stab -- though perhaps a mental equivalent will be included in a future game, who knows?

In TSoG, the trainer asks you a question about your temperament before deciding which elemental affinity to focus on. This implies that they are based around personality. But what I found particularly strange is that, believe it or not, they kind of match up to the four core class courses taught in the US elementary system. Sounds crazy, I know, but bear with me for a moment. The four "core classes" are science, history, math, and English (really more like philosophy and rhetoric). If you took four students that each made one of those four courses their passion, I think their answers to the question would be as follows:

Scientists believe that wisdom lies in bringing new possibilities to light. By definition, that's their job: experimenting with the natural world to find new possibilities and advance our understanding of the universe. Historians are the opposite, believing that wisdom lies in scrutinizing the mistakes of history to avoid repeating them. Mathematicians believe in distance and rationality, breaking the observable world down into math and easily-analyzed formulas. On the flipside, rhetoricians believe in great passion. They believe in philosophy, the power of human nature, and the power of language -- emotions and passions.

Admittedly a test size of 1 is useless, but I personally fit the pattern -- my preferred course is science, and I picked light. I do see the others as legitimate possibilities, however, and for a while I was tempted to pick cold, because I also believe in rationality over emotions.

Well, anyway, this was just my crazy observation. Feel free to comment or mock as you wish. These are merely my crazy ramblings, you don't have to take them seriously if you don't want to. :p

If you want people to take you seriously, then you shouldn't make up information and then pretend like you are directly paraphrasing the game.

If you want people to take you seriously, perhaps you should refrain from rudeness and personal accusations. This kind of puerile behavior only serves to discredit your argument.

"You can feel a great force flowing from [Luca] into [Griffin]. You can hear a sound like a towering torrent of water spiraling and sucking down a tiny hole."

This was the main passage I was using to make my argument. The description calls the soul charge a "great force" and makes a simile to a "towering torrent of water", which is where I got "great torrent of energy". As for my claim that this is far more energy than a normal being could store, it goes on to describe the torrent of water as "sucking down a tiny hole", implying that a human body has a hard time holding all of it in. (Plus, if we look at this from a biological point of view, the amount of energy needed to jump-start a dead body would be immense -- enough to recharge enough ATP molecules in order to get vital systems running again, and probably a steady supply of additional energy to stabilize it. And that would just result in a vegetable -- Luca's soul charge revitalizes the mind as well.) Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?

If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claimed that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like ""as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did it say something vague like it feels like a "great force"?

Um...I was basing my information off of this. A topic you created. I am curious as to how you are confused when you cited that same post to help your argument earlier in this very thread.

Are you honestly telling me that Luca has greater psy power than Duvalier?

I direct you to Gameplay and Story Segregation. However, even if we are working within those confines, the psy power stat is not, in fact, the only aspect of a psy's power. Luca has a very specific skill and ability that no other character we've seen is capable of. Perhaps saying that she's higher on an absolute power spectrum is incorrect, but she does have an ability that Duvalier does not and cannot replicate.

Except defeated spirits never return.

Actually, yes they do; if you go back to the main portion of Baz's warehouse, then return to the cellar, you will fight the spirits again.

Logically, The Spirits Within reveals what spirits really are. The book was strategically put after Crypt 4 to be a small plot twist.  People seem to want to dismiss The Spirits Within for emotional reasons.  Even though the facts say otherwise, people stubbornly want to believe that spirits are souls remaining to do unfinished business instead of telepathes subconsciously creating artificial beings.

So this is what you're basing your argument on? I'm afraid it's a flawed basis. I don't see it as a plot twist. Look at the game's main narrative: Craig avoids giving a direct answer to the nature of Yahweh and the Cult, instead providing a number of equally plausible explanations and allowing the player to come to their own conclusions. Why wouldn't he do a similar thing with The Spirit Within? The book provides an alternate, non-magical explanation for why spirits exist. You can choose whether or not to believe it, but there is no evidence that shows it to be fact. The book was written by an in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge of the subject -- the wording in the book implies they've never actually seen a spirit themselves, in fact. Does this not make the source suspect?

I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.

...Except I did present it as fact? I was citing my source. I'm really confused by what you're talking about. Are you admitting that my theory is right if that piece of supporting evidence is fact?

You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.

...Is it too much to ask that we don't resort to flinging accusations, please? Let's keep things civil here.

The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.  Dumping a bucket of wet plaster on a crevice is easy, while making the plaster fit into all the crevices in the hard part. Since Luca can hold an almost infinite number of soul charges in herself, she obviously doesn't have an issue fitting them in herself.

I refer you to my previous posts. Molding the energy requires finesse, but Luca has (or holds) more raw power. Duvalier may be capable of doing something she can't, but only because he has more knowledge regarding the target of the soul charge. She is still higher than him in terms of an absolute power spectrum. She is capable of extracting and holding multiple soul charges, when Duvalier struggles to contain even a single one. How is Luca capable of doing something Duvalier can't if she's just a figment of his imagination?

Yes. Shaping the energy is the "hard part" because it requires finesse and concentration. Luca is the one who actually provides the energy, however. In terms of raw power, Luca is the greater entity there. The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.