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What are Spirits made of

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SmartyPants:

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--- Quote from: SmartyPants on February 24, 2012, 11:04:58 PM ---I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
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--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 03:26:01 PM ---I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
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Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.

Steelfist:
While I did consider the 'your mind makes it real' argument, I discarded it because a spirit would know that they couldn't be harmed. Still, an argument in favor would be that there is a gap between knowing and implicitly believing, and that would explain the greater ghost total immunity; they are experienced enough to implicitly believe they are immune.


--- Quote from: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 05:54:52 PM ---It's somewhat like a placebo. Of course, this is less effective than actually being wounded by a weapon, so only half damage is taken.

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Why? If a being is given shape by the mind, the mind would affect the being to the fullest extent. So no, as a placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing, to a spirit, in my opinion.


--- Quote from: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 05:54:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 03:26:01 PM ---The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

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My problem with this explanation is that it assumes that the 50% reduction of physical damage is a uniform property of all potential attackers, whereas it being a property of the spirits themselves is far more likely. As you said, people in the telepath world have psy powers of varying degree. Surely Duvalier, a talented psy, would (subconsciously or not) deal a higher percentage of damage with a knife than Qudssi, a man with little to no psy abilities?

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Not at all; Duvalier may have more power, but he only channels it to an extent; he believes a certain amount of damage would occur, and his attack isn't nearly as focused as if he had done it consciously.
--- Quote from: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 05:54:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: SmartyPants on February 24, 2012, 11:04:58 PM ---I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.

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I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates. Perhaps, though, the theory doesn't require that the spirit be composed of a dense liquid; it doesn't matter what it's made of (whether it's liquid, pure psy, or something else) as long as the mind shield surrounding it is tangible. As for the weapon, if we assume it's also ethereal, perhaps the mind shield around it is harder? Set is able to create a highly durable solid state shield, right?

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I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving. In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.


--- Quote from: SmartyPants on February 25, 2012, 07:32:57 PM ---
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--- Quote from: SmartyPants on February 24, 2012, 11:04:58 PM ---I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
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--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 03:26:01 PM ---I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
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Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.

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Psy energy has the properties of densely compacted liquid? I feel less clear now than I did before your post.

SmartyPants:

--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: SmartyPants on February 25, 2012, 07:32:57 PM ---
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--- Quote from: SmartyPants on February 24, 2012, 11:04:58 PM ---I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
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--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 03:26:01 PM ---I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
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Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.
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Psy energy has the properties of densely compacted liquid? I feel less clear now than I did before your post.
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When psy energy manifests in a physical form, it has the properties of a liquid.  The only thing that gives shape to the liquid psy energy is the spirit's psychic powers holding the liquid into a human form.  When a spirit fails to maintain its psy defense, then it unable able to hold itself together and it will dissipate.

fourinone:

--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---Why? If a being is given shape by the mind, the mind would affect the being to the fullest extent. So no, as a placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing, to a spirit, in my opinion.

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If you were actually struck in the face by an axe, there would be bleeding and infection and all that good stuff, in addition to the mental trauma. You could die from blood loss or damage to a vital organ. Tell me a placebo is just as effective.  :P


--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---Not at all; Duvalier may have more power, but he only channels it to an extent; he believes a certain amount of damage would occur, and his attack isn't nearly as focused as if he had done it consciously.

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Yeah, sorry, I worded this kind of badly. You know, forget about my argument here; it doesn't matter.


--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving.

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Rajav's damage output with the spear is determined mainly by strength, not psy power. Even if it were, psy defence would merely create the spear, whereas psy power would handle the force of the stabs, and the telekinesis which guides its trajectory when thrown.


--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

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A solid state shield requires PsP to create, but not to maintain. Set can regenerate PsP normally even if a shield is up. If the shield were created around the spear and never taken down, it could be used indefinitely without any more PsP. Plus, Set's solid state shield is wider than and as tall as a human. Even if the spear required PsP to create each battle, it would be trivial compared to that needed for Set's shields.

Steelfist:
A placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing; to use your argument, their mind makes it real. And corporeal opponents aren't affected by blood loss, nor damage to vital organs (until they die). And infection doesn't play a part in battle, just in whether or not they survive a wound afterward.


--- Quote from: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 09:39:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving.

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Rajav's damage output with the spear is determined mainly by strength, not psy power. Even if it were, psy defence would merely create the spear, whereas psy power would handle the force of the stabs, and the telekinesis which guides its trajectory when thrown.

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No - you misunderstand. Psy power dictates your psp, so if their body was a psy shield, attacking it would drain psp and not health - in fact, the values would be one and the same. The telekinesis (If that is how the spear is manipulated) would affect the power of the strike. Strength wouldn't have anything to do with it, so that can't be it.


--- Quote from: fourinone on February 25, 2012, 09:39:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: SteelFist on February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM ---In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

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A solid state shield requires PsP to create, but not to maintain. Set can regenerate PsP normally even if a shield is up. If the shield were created around the spear and never taken down, it could be used indefinitely without any more PsP. Plus, Set's solid state shield is wider than and as tall as a human. Even if the spear required PsP to create each battle, it would be trivial compared to that needed for Set's shields.

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Moving a solid state shield with your mind - especially if the entire body is a shield - is going to take power - and that would prevent much power regeneration.

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