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Author Topic: What are Spirits made of  (Read 23648 times)

fourinone

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What are Spirits made of
« on: February 24, 2012, 06:13:55 PM »

(Though actually, in that particular case, there's a very easy explanation: his spear is clearly spectral as well, so it makes sense that he is capable of interacting with it as if it were a normal object.)

If that's the case, then how is it that he's able to hurt living enemies with it? The same goes for the axes of ghost knights. Despite what it looks like on the sprite, I think it would make more sense if the spear were real, and he were handling it with telekinesis. (Though....if that were true, shouldn't his melee attack's damage be dependent on Psy Power rather than strength? After all, Duvalier's telekinetic capabilities are determined by Psy Power.....gah. What do you think?)


Edit: to change topic title. Ert.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 01:02:03 PM by Ertxiem »
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Chocobo_Fan

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What are Spirits made of
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 07:53:06 PM »

It seems like ghosts can influence aspects of the physical world, though. Baz mentions poltergeists in the first mission briefing. It's possible that his spear can partially solidify or transfer into the material world to harm opponents. Though the telekinesis theory would also work.

I do admit I am quite curious as to how Rajav's strength training works. How would it be different from his psy power? How can a ghost get stronger muscles? I really don't know. D:
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fourinone

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What are Spirits made of
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 08:51:15 PM »

It seems like ghosts can influence aspects of the physical world, though. Baz mentions poltergeists in the first mission briefing. It's possible that his spear can partially solidify or transfer into the material world to harm opponents. Though the telekinesis theory would also work.

I do admit I am quite curious as to how Rajav's strength training works. How would it be different from his psy power? How can a ghost get stronger muscles? I really don't know. D:

If I remember correctly, Baz is only aware of spirits because a psy-sensitive servant of his used to complain about them. Though, you may be right that spirits are at least somewhat tangible, seeing that they can be harmed with physical attacks and cannot fly through walls.

As for the strength training, I'm quite puzzled about it too, haha. But recall that Rahel can learn to counterattack after much strength training, the description saying that her reflexes have improved to a point where she can strike back quickly. It seems that the strength stat isn't all about raw power output. Perhaps Rajav isn't actually developing his muscles, but improving his technique.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 08:54:37 PM by fourinone »
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SmartyPants

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What are Spirits made of
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 11:04:58 PM »

I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defense (mental integrity).  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defense (mental integrity) that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.

Ertxiem

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What are Spirits made of
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 01:01:13 PM »

I like your description, SmartyPants. It makes sense.

(So much that I created a new topic. :) )
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Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 03:26:01 PM »

I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).

The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

The physical attack in fact does nothing, and a poorly focused psy attack causes a little damage.
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Chocobo_Fan

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2012, 04:18:40 PM »

That does sound more plausible...but then, how do you explain how greater ghosts are completely immune to physical attacks?

And also, if that's the case, we come back to the problem of how Rajav is able to physically attack things with a spectral spear.

(It also seems odd that spirits appear to have material possessions... Luca is clearly in a dress, and Rajav has a cape and shield in addition to his spear, all of which have in the same spirit texture. Perhaps it is because the image spirits project is linked to their own self-perception? So they would look like they view themselves, clothes and possessions included.)

Oh, and, uh, sorry for derailing my own thread, Ert.
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Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 04:41:54 PM »

That does sound more plausible...but then, how do you explain how greater ghosts are completely immune to physical attacks?
Perhaps the less focused and controlled blast can be diverted, with sufficient power and skill.

And also, if that's the case, we come back to the problem of how Rajav is able to physically attack things with a spectral spear.

The spear could be manupulated with telekinesis (He might not even be aware of this, as it may be subconcious), or his spear could be non-corporeal, but the space that it occupies becomes very, very cold (Thanks to spiritual cyro affinity), producing a physical effect. Or, possibly, his 'body' consists of a psy shield, and psy shields can react with the physical world.

(It also seems odd that spirits appear to have material possessions... Luca is clearly in a dress, and Rajav has a cape and shield in addition to his spear, all of which have in the same spirit texture. Perhaps it is because the image spirits project is linked to their own self-perception? So they would look like they view themselves, clothes and possessions included.)

I think so, yes. I mean, it would make a lot of sense, and I can't really think of an alternative.
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fourinone

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 05:54:52 PM »

I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.

I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates. Perhaps, though, the theory doesn't require that the spirit be composed of a dense liquid; it doesn't matter what it's made of (whether it's liquid, pure psy, or something else) as long as the mind shield surrounding it is tangible. As for the weapon, if we assume it's also ethereal, perhaps the mind shield around it is harder? Set is able to create a highly durable solid state shield, right?

The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

My problem with this explanation is that it assumes that the 50% reduction of physical damage is a uniform property of all potential attackers, whereas it being a property of the spirits themselves is far more likely. As you said, people in the telepath world have psy powers of varying degree. Surely Duvalier, a talented psy, would (subconsciously or not) deal a higher percentage of damage with a knife than Qudssi, a man with little to no psy abilities?


Allow me to suggests another theory. This theory assumes that the spirit is merely an intangible disembodied mind of a deceased human. Spirits are entities which cling to their former lives, so much of the habits and brain functions from their lives may remain. When a spirit is attacked by a physical weapon, its mind still thinks it's being harmed, so it may shut down or die from shock. Pulling a quote from the Matrix, "your mind makes it real". It's somewhat like a placebo. Of course, this is less effective than actually being wounded by a weapon, so only half damage is taken. Greater ghosts, which have been spirits for a long time, may have forgotten much of their humanity, no longer associating being struck with something harmful, thus making them immune. (This may also be why the heads of greater ghosts are skulls: they have forgotten their humanity and now perceive themselves as such.)
Also note that for this theory to work, their weapons would have to be real, and wielded with telekinesis.
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Ertxiem

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 06:09:17 PM »

That does sound more plausible...but then, how do you explain how greater ghosts are completely immune to physical attacks?

And also, if that's the case, we come back to the problem of how Rajav is able to physically attack things with a spectral spear.

(It also seems odd that spirits appear to have material possessions... Luca is clearly in a dress, and Rajav has a cape and shield in addition to his spear, all of which have in the same spirit texture. Perhaps it is because the image spirits project is linked to their own self-perception? So they would look like they view themselves, clothes and possessions included.)

Oh, and, uh, sorry for derailing my own thread, Ert.

Greater ghosts could be immune to physical attacks because they could be able to maintain intact their idea of themselves, even when a physical weapon is crossing through their imagined position of their body. (An alternative explanation was the ability of greater ghosts to make an opening in the path of the weapon.)

If the spirits' psy powers are able to modify air, they would also be able to act upon physical objects and living creatures. So, I can understand that a spirit may be able to move a chair or punch a person. Of course, if they want to attack someone, it may be easier to use their psy powers directly (in a mind blast, for instance).

(I agree with the ideas in your parenthesis.)

No problem. It's fun when ideas grow and follow new paths.

No problem. When ideas start to grow, sometimes they follow their own path.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 07:32:57 PM »

Quote
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.

Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM »

While I did consider the 'your mind makes it real' argument, I discarded it because a spirit would know that they couldn't be harmed. Still, an argument in favor would be that there is a gap between knowing and implicitly believing, and that would explain the greater ghost total immunity; they are experienced enough to implicitly believe they are immune.

It's somewhat like a placebo. Of course, this is less effective than actually being wounded by a weapon, so only half damage is taken.

Why? If a being is given shape by the mind, the mind would affect the being to the fullest extent. So no, as a placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing, to a spirit, in my opinion.

The spirit being affected by physical attacks could be because of latent psy talent; I suspect that most people within the telepath world have psy power, of varying degrees, which probably goes unnoticed. But, because the person intends to attack the spirit, and believe they can harm the spirit, they focus their latent psy power subconciously, and do attack the spirit with their mind, without realising it is a mental attack. Because it isn't a proper psy attack, it's not as effective as one, resulting in the 'physical resistance' possessed by spirits.

My problem with this explanation is that it assumes that the 50% reduction of physical damage is a uniform property of all potential attackers, whereas it being a property of the spirits themselves is far more likely. As you said, people in the telepath world have psy powers of varying degree. Surely Duvalier, a talented psy, would (subconsciously or not) deal a higher percentage of damage with a knife than Qudssi, a man with little to no psy abilities?

Not at all; Duvalier may have more power, but he only channels it to an extent; he believes a certain amount of damage would occur, and his attack isn't nearly as focused as if he had done it consciously.
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.

I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates. Perhaps, though, the theory doesn't require that the spirit be composed of a dense liquid; it doesn't matter what it's made of (whether it's liquid, pure psy, or something else) as long as the mind shield surrounding it is tangible. As for the weapon, if we assume it's also ethereal, perhaps the mind shield around it is harder? Set is able to create a highly durable solid state shield, right?

I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving. In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

Quote
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.

Psy energy has the properties of densely compacted liquid? I feel less clear now than I did before your post.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 08:14:12 PM »

Quote
I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence.  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defences that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I would refute this theory; spirits are in fact invisible, and a super dense liquid would at least distort the air, and would be visually detectable. Actually, I would say that the spirit is composed of pure psy, whose emanations are interpreted by Duvalier as a glowing form (As it is a purely non-visual experience represented in a visual way, it can look wierd or inexplicable).
Just to be clear, I think spirits are made up of psy energy, and I imagen that the psy energy has the properties of a densely compacted liquid.  Being psy energy, it can only be viewed with the power of one's mind.
Psy energy has the properties of densely compacted liquid? I feel less clear now than I did before your post.
When psy energy manifests in a physical form, it has the properties of a liquid.  The only thing that gives shape to the liquid psy energy is the spirit's psychic powers holding the liquid into a human form.  When a spirit fails to maintain its psy defense, then it unable able to hold itself together and it will dissipate.

fourinone

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 09:39:31 PM »

Why? If a being is given shape by the mind, the mind would affect the being to the fullest extent. So no, as a placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing, to a spirit, in my opinion.

If you were actually struck in the face by an axe, there would be bleeding and infection and all that good stuff, in addition to the mental trauma. You could die from blood loss or damage to a vital organ. Tell me a placebo is just as effective.  :P

Not at all; Duvalier may have more power, but he only channels it to an extent; he believes a certain amount of damage would occur, and his attack isn't nearly as focused as if he had done it consciously.
Yeah, sorry, I worded this kind of badly. You know, forget about my argument here; it doesn't matter.

I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving.

Rajav's damage output with the spear is determined mainly by strength, not psy power. Even if it were, psy defence would merely create the spear, whereas psy power would handle the force of the stabs, and the telekinesis which guides its trajectory when thrown.

In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

A solid state shield requires PsP to create, but not to maintain. Set can regenerate PsP normally even if a shield is up. If the shield were created around the spear and never taken down, it could be used indefinitely without any more PsP. Plus, Set's solid state shield is wider than and as tall as a human. Even if the spear required PsP to create each battle, it would be trivial compared to that needed for Set's shields.
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Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2012, 07:27:18 AM »

A placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing; to use your argument, their mind makes it real. And corporeal opponents aren't affected by blood loss, nor damage to vital organs (until they die). And infection doesn't play a part in battle, just in whether or not they survive a wound afterward.

I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving.

Rajav's damage output with the spear is determined mainly by strength, not psy power. Even if it were, psy defence would merely create the spear, whereas psy power would handle the force of the stabs, and the telekinesis which guides its trajectory when thrown.

No - you misunderstand. Psy power dictates your psp, so if their body was a psy shield, attacking it would drain psp and not health - in fact, the values would be one and the same. The telekinesis (If that is how the spear is manipulated) would affect the power of the strike. Strength wouldn't have anything to do with it, so that can't be it.

In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.

A solid state shield requires PsP to create, but not to maintain. Set can regenerate PsP normally even if a shield is up. If the shield were created around the spear and never taken down, it could be used indefinitely without any more PsP. Plus, Set's solid state shield is wider than and as tall as a human. Even if the spear required PsP to create each battle, it would be trivial compared to that needed for Set's shields.

Moving a solid state shield with your mind - especially if the entire body is a shield - is going to take power - and that would prevent much power regeneration.
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