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Author Topic: What are Spirits made of  (Read 23636 times)

SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 01:25:57 PM »

A placebo effect would be as effective as the real thing; to use your argument, their mind makes it real. And corporeal opponents aren't affected by blood loss, nor damage to vital organs (until they die). And infection doesn't play a part in battle, just in whether or not they survive a wound afterward.
What about getting backstabbed?  The reason backstab damage is worst then regualr damage is because the enemy doesn't know they are going to get hit untill they are hit.  If you are unaware that you are getting hit, then how will the placebo effect work.


I am going to assume that my theory is best since you guys have gave up find fault in it.

Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2012, 01:52:21 PM »

Presumably, the extra backstab damage could be attributed to the sudden realisation that they have been backstabbed, and the ensuing belief that they are gravely injured. Possibly even a panicked assumption that a terrible wound has been inflicted.

Smartypants, assuming your argument is best because no-one has yet argued with it is a flawed conclusion at best; for all you know, all others percieve your argument to be beneath contestation, rather than above it. For the record, I am not saying this is the case; merely that your line of reasoning was faulty. And, in any case, it was most likely an attempt to get a person to reply to your argument. So I will.

If liquid psy energy can be percieved with your mind, why can spirits only be seen once you know their name?
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 05:59:17 AM »

Presumably, the extra backstab damage could be attributed to the sudden realisation that they have been backstabbed, and the ensuing belief that they are gravely injured. Possibly even a panicked assumption that a terrible wound has been inflicted.
That is alot to assume that spirit will always know that they were backstabbed.  You would be assuming that an assassin draw attention to himself during his attacks or that it noticable be hit by arrow from a distance.  Without feeling something real, I don't know how someone would know they are being hit.

If liquid psy energy can be percieved with your mind, why can spirits only be seen once you know their name?
Psy energy is a creation of the mind, so the only way to view the spirit is to see it with one's mind.  By knowing the spirit's name, one's mind is open to seeing the spirits.

Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2012, 11:09:24 AM »

Hmm. I suggest a more refined alternative. Given that Psy is energy, to percieve it you must be attuned to a particular wavelength. Because fleshy or shadowy beings have their thoughts generated by the same apparatus, the wavelength is the same for each member of the species. But without flesh imposed thought, the wavelength varies between spirits, affected by their perception of their self and their way of thinking. Duvalier can pick up the name because it is broadcast, and with it he attunes himself to their mental pattern.

In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
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Ertxiem

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2012, 11:19:32 AM »

Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.
This is also a good point into this thread.
I would like to add that if Luca is a product of Duvalier's mind and psy ability, the trainer would probably warn Duvalier that he could do the things he already does without the necessity to create Luca.
On the other hand, how close are Cygnus' duplicates to a ghost?
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Ert, the Dead Cow.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 02:17:19 PM »

In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
I don't understand why you assume that spirits don't need a body.  Clearly, when a spirit's body is destroyed they can't do anything anymore.  Luca can use multiple skills untill her body is destroyed.  Untill Luca can gather all her psy energy back into a human form, she is useless.

Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.
I would like to add that if Luca is a product of Duvalier's mind and psy ability, the trainer would probably warn Duvalier that he could do the things he already does without the necessity to create Luca.
When it comes to reviving dead teammates, Duvalier does more then Luca.  Luca does soul suck and hold soul charges, but Duvalier is the one who does all of the reviving.

Ertxiem

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 05:48:10 PM »

Taking a close look at reviving, then we may say that the revived teammates are no longer who they used to be but what Duvalier saw they were. In that sense, the revived teammates are just like the spirits created by a psy, with the characteristic that they inhabit a physical body that once harboured a (real) person.

Can someone please find a good argument against my previous paragraph? I would prefer some other explanation, but that one seems to fit.  :(
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 06:16:40 PM »

Taking a close look at reviving, then we may say that the revived teammates are no longer who they used to be but what Duvalier saw they were. In that sense, the revived teammates are just like the spirits created by a psy, with the characteristic that they inhabit a physical body that once harboured a (real) person.
That makes sense, but how do the teammates still know things that Duvalier doesn't?  If the revived teammates were only what Duvalier imagened them to be, then the revivied teammates would only know what Duvalier knew they knew.

Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2012, 10:25:38 AM »

Simple; Duvalier is a mortal incarnation of Yahwah, who doesn't like how the cult is using his holy book. Or Duvalier is Anu, who doesn't like the way the cult is acting. Like Jesus, but in telepath. So he knows everything and has unlimited power, but restrains himself.

Of course, the above is probably nonsense (Though Craig will never tell us so).

Anyway, it seems clear to me that the thing that Duvalier actually does is mould the unformed energy into a roughly compatible form so it takes with the body, and reanimates it, also rejuvenating it. But that is unimortant, as Luca still does something Duvalier can't. Now, back to the main debate:

In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
I don't understand why assume that spirits don't need a body.  Clearly, when a spirit's body is destroyed they can't do anything anymore.  Luca can use multiple skills untill her body is destroyed.  Untill Luca can gather all her psy energy back into a human form, she is useless.

Please don't use the word 'clearly' without presenting solid evidence. I'll argue with the scrap you did present in a moment. There wasn't nearly enough evidence to use 'clearly', and the assuredness of your post comes across somewhat irritatingly when there is nothing whatsoever to be sure of. You didn't even counter my argument, you just posted a fact which supported your view. Clearly.

Luca cannot act because all her power has been consumed sustaining her body - if we take your point, that it is a shield, to be fact.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2012, 01:12:19 PM »

In any case, the problem with your theory is that it does not take into account that the spirits shouldn't need bodies at all; if it can exist independently of the body, which it must to be able to use psy to create a body, why does it make itself vulnerable by creating a body at all? Habit? No, as that kind of power would have to be focused - creating a body out of a mind shield and energy would take power and concentration.
I don't understand why assume that spirits don't need a body.  Clearly, when a spirit's body is destroyed they can't do anything anymore.  Luca can use multiple skills untill her body is destroyed.  Untill Luca can gather all her psy energy back into a human form, she is useless.
Please don't use the word 'clearly' without presenting solid evidence. I'll argue with the scrap you did present in a moment. There wasn't nearly enough evidence to use 'clearly', and the assuredness of your post comes across somewhat irritatingly when there is nothing whatsoever to be sure of. You didn't even counter my argument, you just posted a fact which supported your view. Clearly.
Have you not played the game?  When Luca's body is destroyed in battle, is she still able to Mind Blast or Transfer?  No, after being destroyed in battle, Luca and Rajav can no longer do anything to help the team.  In the next battle Luca and Rajav have reformed their bodies, and then become usefull again.  When the Resistance destroyed Azma's and enemy spirts' bodies, Azma and those spirits were no longer able to Mind Blast or Cyro Blast anyone.  I really don't see how this isn't clear to everyone who has played the game.

Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2012, 01:59:01 PM »

So, if it isn't that their power is exhausted, why do they not immediately reform and continue fighting? After all, it is just energy contained within a shield, right?

And, incidentally, you may be straying close to becoming irritated - demonstrated by your rhetoric in the previous post. Notably the fact that you use the phrase 'Have you not played the game?'. This implies - or rather, outright claims - that my arguments are obviously flawed. Whatever the case may be, I must respectfully request that you avoid such potentially insulting wording.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2012, 02:35:40 PM »

So, if it isn't that their power is exhausted, why do they not immediately reform and continue fighting?
It must take some time for a spirit to recreate itself.

And, incidentally, you may be straying close to becoming irritated
I think you are projecting.

Notably the fact that you use the phrase 'Have you not played the game?'. This implies - or rather, outright claims - that my arguments are obviously flawed.
Your argument was obviously flawed, because it is "Clearly" shown to people who have played the game that spirits can't do anything once their bodies are destroyed.  Gameplayers learn that as early as Mission 1.  I am sorry if you find me kinda blunt, but when you say something ridiculous, I am going to point out the absurdity in the statement.

Ertxiem

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2012, 05:15:41 PM »

I recall that defeating spirits merely dissipates them. Not necessarily destroys them forever. This would mean that it isn't necessary to exist a psy to recreate them.

The spirits in Baz's basement could also be a creation of Baz. Only when he believed that they were destroyed, he stopped (re)creating them. [It was a recreative activity! :P ]

The fact that the defeated spirits don't appear before us later in the game may be caused for them not wanting to be defeated again and preferred to be elsewhere.

Personally, I don't see strong evidence on either theory (spirits being dead people or being created by psys). I would prefer if spirits would be dead people with unfinished business and, in my opinion, this would fit better the revival abilities (of Duvalier & Luca or of Nelis).
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Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2012, 09:50:39 AM »

And, incidentally, you may be straying close to becoming irritated
I think you are projecting.

Not at all. I even gave a reason for my belief - therefore I am being reasonable, no?

Notably the fact that you use the phrase 'Have you not played the game?'. This implies - or rather, outright claims - that my arguments are obviously flawed.
Your argument was obviously flawed, because it is "Clearly" shown to people who have played the game that spirits can't do anything once their bodies are destroyed.  Gameplayers learn that as early as Mission 1.  I am sorry if you find me kinda blunt, but when you say something ridiculous, I am going to point out the absurdity in the statement.

Indeed, I have no problem with you pointing out absurdity - but you didn't. You pointed out something I which cast doubt on my argument, certainly, but you dismissal of my response hinges on your claim that spirits are projections (Which has not been firmly established, as the source is suspect). So thus, my argument cannot be 'obviously flawed' in a fundamental way, as it required an unsound argument to dismiss.

And please do consider, before posting, if it may be possible for your response to have crossed the boundary between bluntness and rudeness.

It seems that Ert has answered your post quite comprehensively, so I'll leave it there.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 09:54:12 AM by SteelFist »
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2012, 12:35:00 PM »

The spirits in Baz's basement could also be a creation of Baz. Only when he believed that they were destroyed, he stopped (re)creating them. [It was a recreative activity!]
I think that is highly unlikely since Baz has never seen a spirit.  In fact, it has been implied that Baz does not have the Gift.

The fact that the defeated spirits don't appear before us later in the game may be caused for them not wanting to be defeated again and preferred to be elsewhere.
It is possible, but I don't see Azma giving up because he temporarily disappated.

Personally, I don't see strong evidence on either theory (spirits being dead people or being created by psys). I would prefer if spirits would be dead people with unfinished business.
Logically, The Spirits Within reveals what spirits really are. The book was strategically put after Crypt 4 to be a small plot twist.  People seem to want to dismiss The Spirits Within for emotional reasons.  Even though the facts say otherwise, people stubbornly want to believe that spirits are souls remaining to do unfinished business instead of telepathes subconsciously creating artificial beings.
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