The Sinister Design Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new Sinister Design forums!

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: What are Spirits made of  (Read 24298 times)

Chocobo_Fan

  • Blue Cape
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2012, 03:15:27 PM »

Quote
Except defeated spirits never return.
Actually, yes they do; if you go back to the main portion of Baz's warehouse, then return to the cellar, you will fight the spirits again.

Quote
Logically, The Spirits Within reveals what spirits really are. The book was strategically put after Crypt 4 to be a small plot twist.  People seem to want to dismiss The Spirits Within for emotional reasons.  Even though the facts say otherwise, people stubbornly want to believe that spirits are souls remaining to do unfinished business instead of telepathes subconsciously creating artificial beings.
So this is what you're basing your argument on? I'm afraid it's a flawed basis. I don't see it as a plot twist. Look at the game's main narrative: Craig avoids giving a direct answer to the nature of Yahweh and the Cult, instead providing a number of equally plausible explanations and allowing the player to come to their own conclusions. Why wouldn't he do a similar thing with The Spirit Within? The book provides an alternate, non-magical explanation for why spirits exist. You can choose whether or not to believe it, but there is no evidence that shows it to be fact. The book was written by an in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge of the subject -- the wording in the book implies they've never actually seen a spirit themselves, in fact. Does this not make the source suspect?
Logged

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2012, 04:03:17 PM »

So this is what you're basing your argument on? I'm afraid it's a flawed basis. I don't see it as a plot twist. Look at the game's main narrative: Craig avoids giving a direct answer to the nature of Yahweh and the Cult, instead providing a number of equally plausible explanations and allowing the player to come to their own conclusions. Why wouldn't he do a similar thing with The Spirit Within?
Yes, there was no direct answer to the nature of Yawah, but what spirits are has a direct answer.  The direct answer is from a crypt book called "The Spirit Within".  You are simply cherry picking facts.  If I wanted to cherry pick facts like you, then I can claim that there are currently thousands of assassins guilds and that Sibelius didn't create the Mechanics. 

The book provides an alternate, non-magical explanation for why spirits exist.
Craig has said multiple times there isn't any magic in the game.  That means that the non-magical explanation is the correct answer.

You can choose whether or not to believe it, but there is no evidence that shows it to be fact.
The Spirit Within can explain why spirits think they are dead people with no memories, but the theory on spirits being dead people contradicts the direct source.  One theory fits all the facts, while the other only works by cherry picking.  Obviously the one that explains everything is better.

The book was written by an in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge of the subject -- the wording in the book implies they've never actually seen a spirit themselves, in fact. Does this not make the source suspect?
The words from the so called "in-universe author with their own biases and incomplete knowledge" are actually the words of the real-world author who knows everything about the universe he created.   It doesn't make sense for a game/story to lie to the reader unless the truth is revealed later.

Ertxiem

  • Global Moderator
  • Black Cape
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2012, 05:23:03 PM »

The game creator puts words in the mouth of the characters and in books. Some say spirits are dead people some say they aren't.
I think that what Craig wanted to do when he wrote The Spirit Within was to give us a "reasonable doubt" regarding what are spirits.

Reviving dead characters and the existence of psy powers more effective than common weapons are a kind of magic to me. I believe that Craig used the term magic referring to sorcery - that kind of magic is absent in Cera Bella.
Logged
Ert, the Dead Cow.
With 2 small Mandelbrot sets as the spots.

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2012, 10:35:10 PM »

Some say spirits are dead people some say they aren't.
The spirits only think they are dead because the telepath's subconscious gives them a name and a fake, vague history.  It is like a split personality not knowing that it is a split personality.

I think that what Craig wanted to do when he wrote The Spirit Within was to give us a "reasonable doubt" regarding what are spirits.
That doesn't make any sense.  It is one thing for a writer to leave things ambiguous, but it is foolish to add a theory just to confuse the readers.

Reviving dead characters and the existence of psy powers more effective than common weapons are a kind of magic to me. I believe that Craig used the term magic referring to sorcery - that kind of magic is absent in Cera Bella.
Reviving the dead and the existance of psy powers are all abilities of the mind.  It would make sense that the creation of spirits is also an ability of the mind instead of something magical and otherworldly.

Steelfist

  • Guest
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2012, 09:38:57 AM »

@SmartyPants:

I know what 'The Spirit Within' says. It's fairly clear. And you can quote it to your heart's content. However, the source is suspect, as you can in no way prove the book to be true or false (for reasons already mentioned and dismissed by yourself using what I can only call cherry picking) - and that is the way Craig prefers it, as evidenced by his avoidance of revealing the existence or lack thereof of Yawah. So, I feel fully able to dismiss an argument based of the aforementioned points.

Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned. So they are either recreated or dissapated (Not sure who'd be recreating them - but then, that's your side of the argument, isn't it?).

A spirit could simply be an accidental projection, or it could be a sentient psy imprint made at the moment of death. Either is possible, in Cera Bella.

One of the important things to do when debating is to avoid dismissing hard facts with non-facts, as it makes you look foolish. It's a good idea to check before doing so - as in the case of the reappearance of spirits.

It is entirely possible that Craig added an alternate theory to provide an alternate explanation, and this isn't foolish, because many people would prefer an alternate explanation to spirits. Believing in either is a choice, disagreeing with you is not 'foolish'.

Thank you for your understanding.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 12:27:22 PM by SteelFist »
Logged

Ertxiem

  • Global Moderator
  • Black Cape
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2012, 11:35:17 AM »

If we assume that spirits are creations of psys, instead of dead people, why can Luca be a creation of somebody else than Duvalier? Set, for instance - in this case, Luca could be a subconscious creation that does things that Set forbids himself to do but may feel the desire to do.

Logged
Ert, the Dead Cow.
With 2 small Mandelbrot sets as the spots.

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2012, 02:31:14 PM »

Since spirits are creations of psys, instead of dead people, why can Luca be a creation of somebody else than Duvalier?
Luca has to be the creation of Duvalier, because Duvalier's choices are the ones that decide Luca's personality.

Set, for instance - in this case, Luca could be a subconscious creation that does things that Set forbids himself to do but may feel the desire to do.
We don't know who created Rajav, so it is entirely possible for the shy, pacifist Set to have created Rajav to do things Set can't will himself to do such as hurting people and talking to women.

Zackirus

  • Black Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
  • Oh Canada!
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2012, 10:17:25 PM »

If Luca is a creation of Duvalier, then why does she depart the earthly realm at the end of TSoG? If it were truely the case that she was Duvalier's Psy Energy, then she should remain on earth until Duvalier himself dies, as it says in The Spirit Within. Even more so, if she isn't dead in the first place, where exactually is she going?

Also: just because one can affect a spirit, does not mean that one is the creator of it, I mean, Duvalier can convince Azuma that his name is Zalam, does that mean that Duvalier made him too?

I'm not saying which theory is right or wrong (perhaps they are leftover Psy Energy from deceased telepaths :P) but I will point out that neither side has any solid proof.
Logged
If The World Was A Bit More Like Canada, Then We Would Have A Great World, And Hockey 24/7

- Lord Canada

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2012, 01:00:12 PM »

Where is this so called "proof" that spirits are the people of the dead?  The Spirit Within says directly what spirits are and gives a direct explanation to Luca's sudden change, while there isn't anyone who says spirits are dead people besides spirits who barely known their own names and Baz who has never seen one before.  I am amazied that anyone would find the scholars who wrote The Spirit Within to be more suspect than Luca, the ghost who forgot her own husband's name.  After Duvalier asks Luca what she is, Luca answers, "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."

Chocobo_Fan

  • Blue Cape
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2012, 05:43:12 PM »

The point Zackirus was trying to make is that there isn't conclusive proof for either side. You could believe either interpretation, both are equally valid. Stop trying to pass off your interpretation as objective fact. It isn't.

There is an alternate possibility for Luca's personality shift; she gives you one herself if you preserve her original personality. If, for the sake of argument (please take note of my wording there, SmartyPants), we assume that spirits really are the spirits of dead people, then we can still see that they forget memories of their past life over time. Their sense of self is very tenuous, as we can see with the various spirits sprinkled throughout the setting -- and, indeed, very old ones (Greater Ghosts) have forgotten their past selves entirely, and have become nigh-unintelligible. Acting -- taking on a false personality -- is therefore dangerous, as something with so tenuous a personality can easily convince themselves (or be convinced) that they are someone else.
Logged

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2012, 04:36:53 PM »

The point Zackirus was trying to make is that there isn't conclusive proof for either side. You could believe either interpretation, both are equally valid. Stop trying to pass off your interpretation as objective fact. It isn't.
After studying and researching spirits, the scholars who wrote the The Spirit Within concluded that spirits are created from "a telepath's internal mental processes manifesting externally".  The characters who think spirits are dead people, such as Baz, base their views off of ignorant speculation.  One is clearly more valid then the other.

The way you guys easily dismiss the factual book to heed the words of clueless characters such as Baz and Luca is amazing to me.  It is like you guys are dismissing books that say the sun rises and sets each day because the Earth spins on axis, so you can agree with your friend who says Apollo rides a flaming chairot across the sky each day.

Also: just because one can affect a spirit, does not mean that one is the creator of it, I mean, Duvalier can convince Azuma that his name is Zalam, does that mean that Duvalier made him too?
I do agree that a telepath can metaphorically adopt a spirit that another telepath created, but I don't think that is the case with Luca.  Luca's husband being held hostage is too similar of a plight to Duvalier's parents being held hostage to be a coincidence.  Including Luca loyality, she seems to be customed made to help Duvalier.

Zackirus

  • Black Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
  • Oh Canada!
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2012, 07:14:21 PM »

As I said before, I am for neither side; and continuing, you have not answered my first paragraph's questions. It is a fact that Luca leaves the earthly realm when the game is over. Your theory cannot explain this, and, until it does, it is not fact, but merely a theory; which is backed up by your own word: 'concluded'. Meaning that, they , the 'scholars' of the book, researched and studied spirits, and, with those observations made a conclusion, which can be subjected to bias even by itself. Furthermore, these scholar's conlusions are based upon their outside observations, where as, Luca/Rajav's conclusions are based upon actually experiencing such 'observations'. That is similar to saying person a knows more about person b than person b themselves knows.

To your point of the book is written by scholars. Where did you obtain that kind of information? How do you know that Al'al or the Beggar didn't write that book? Just because it's written down in a book doesn't mean it's the truth, I mean, their are plently of other books that claim more preposterous things, yet, people believe they are true.
Logged
If The World Was A Bit More Like Canada, Then We Would Have A Great World, And Hockey 24/7

- Lord Canada

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2012, 08:14:53 PM »

If Luca is a creation of Duvalier, then why does she depart the earthly realm at the end of TSoG? If it were truely the case that she was Duvalier's Psy Energy, then she should remain on earth until Duvalier himself dies, as it says in The Spirit Within. Even more so, if she isn't dead in the first place, where exactually is she going?
First, not all of the TSoG endings have Luca "depart the earthly realm".  She can stay if she so chooses to.
Second, I imagen that Duvalier's subconscious could get rid of Luca as easily as it created her.  When Duvalier subconsciously doesn't want or need Luca anymore, then she will cease to exist.

Even more so, if she isn't dead in the first place, where exactually is she going?
If she really was a spirit of a dead person, where exactually would she go?  Your question is too theological for my taste.

Furthermore, these scholar's conlusions are based upon their outside observations, where as, Luca/Rajav's conclusions are based upon actually experiencing such 'observations'.
After Duvalier asks Luca what she is, Luca answers, "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."
Any supposed experiences or observation a spirit claims to have is questionalble because sprits memories are either false or fuzy.  Plus, the outside view is usually the more objective one.

To your point of the book is written by scholars. Where did you obtain that kind of information? How do you know that Al'al or the Beggar didn't write that book? Just because it's written down in a book doesn't mean it's the truth, I mean, their are plently of other books that claim more preposterous things, yet, people believe they are true.
It frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.
Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.

Zackirus

  • Black Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
  • Oh Canada!
    • View Profile
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2012, 08:35:27 PM »

Yet, when you talk to her in the Headquaters, she says that she will leave this world once her promised is fulfilled. So, if she has choice over what she does, who technically controls Luca? Herself or Duvalier's sub-concsious?

My question isn't asking what happens when you die; the question is asking, if Psy Energy isn't dead, and it leaves it's form, where is it going? Energy cannot be created or destoryed mind you.

While it is true that Spirits have fuzzy details pertaining to their past, how do you explain Rajav's incredible recollection of his past events.

Craig even mentions in a twitter post that, Rajav is an excellent Spearman and Lover; too bad he's dead.


I don't believe that the answer to the question is either Dead People or Psy Energy. I think that, like many things within society/universe, it is a expanse of gray; the truth being a mish-mash of both ideas. Can't we  ALL compromise?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 08:42:21 PM by Zackirus »
Logged
If The World Was A Bit More Like Canada, Then We Would Have A Great World, And Hockey 24/7

- Lord Canada

SmartyPants

  • White Cape
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1814
    • View Profile
    • -----
Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2012, 09:53:42 PM »

Yet, when you talk to her in the Headquaters, she says that she will leave this world once her promised is fulfilled. So, if she has choice over what she does, who technically controls Luca? Herself or Duvalier's sub-concsious?
Luca and Duvalier's subconscious are one and the same.

My question isn't asking what happens when you die; the question is asking, if Psy Energy isn't dead, and it leaves it's form, where is it going? Energy cannot be created or destoryed mind you.
The law of conservation is the basis to why telekinesis isn't possible.  Disappearing psy energy is as impossible as using one's mind to create fire out of nothing.

While it is true that Spirits have fuzzy details pertaining to their past, how do you explain Rajav's incredible recollection of his past events.
What incredible recollection?  The past according to Rajav is either vague factoids or outlandish, untrue tales.

Craig even mentions in a twitter post that, Rajav is an excellent Spearman and Lover; too bad he's dead.
Craig also wrote on the Twitter, "With Crypt 4, I am determined to make you cry; and not in a "To The Moon" sort of way."  Clearly, Craig isn't overly serous when it comes to the twitter.
Plus, Craig didn't want to leave a spoiler on the twitter.  In The Sixth Sense, the viewer is suppose to believe Bruce Willis is alive untill it is revealed at the end.  In TSoG, the player is suppose to believe spirits are dead people untill Crypt 4 is completed.  By leaving spoilers in the twitter, the players experience wouldn't be as great when he learned the truth from The Spirit Within.  Revealing the spirits true nature at the end makes the replay more fun, because the replay allows the smart players to see the connections to how spirits where Duvalier's subconscious the whole time.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6