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Author Topic: What are Spirits made of  (Read 24885 times)

Zackirus

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2012, 10:23:00 PM »

I was kidding with the Rajav comment, and actually, you take the 'energy' from your joyful thoughts and convert them into Fire; makes perfect sense.

Your assuming too much, their is no direct proof (if the book theory if correct) that Luca is part of Duvalier's subconscious. For all you know it could be mix of everyone's sub-concsious that Duvalier has a power to control.

Again, as with the ending of TSoG, it leaves it open. Meaning that, either theory works and can be applied to TSoG, similar to the fact that you only find out in the end that Yawheh may or may not exist. TSoG has the ability to let you view a situation and understand it using both perspectives. Admit it, both theories have holes in them; meaning that, it can up to the player to decide what to believe in, in what makes sense to them.
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ArtDrake

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2012, 11:59:00 PM »

I would draw from the way Craig would seem to be carefully not saying much on the matter that he's not trying to make The Spirit Within objective fact.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2012, 01:21:20 AM »

Your assuming too much, their is no direct proof (since the book theory is correct) that Luca is part of Duvalier's subconscious. For all you know it could be mix of everyone's sub-concsious that Duvalier has a power to control.
While The Spirit Within is direct proof that spirits are creations of Telepaths, there isn't anything that says that Luca is directly controlled or created by Duvalier, yet he is the most likely candidate in my opinion.

Admit it, both theories have holes in them; meaning that, it can up to the player to decide what to believe in, in what makes sense to them.
What holes are there in what The Spirit Within says?  The main argument against book is to pretend it never exisited.

I would draw from the way Craig would seem to be carefully not saying much on the matter that he's not trying to make The Spirit Within objective fact.
It is more likely that Criag is trying to spare some people's feelings.  Like how parents don't tell their young children that Santa isn't real, Craig doesn't want to ruin people's denial about what spirits really are.  Based on the stubborn, irrational replies that I get, it is clearly upsetting for some to hear that spirits aren't the souls of the dead.  I, on the other hand, don't want to encourage people to live in their delusional world where the toothfairy is real and bad things never happen.

Zackirus

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2012, 06:02:21 AM »

im2smart4u, other than the single solitary book that mentions the theory, no other evidence is suggested in the entire game nor can Duvalier talk to any spirit to support the book's theory.

Another loophole: if Soul Charges are the 'spirits' of the undead, and spirits are a person's psy energy/power, then how can Duvalier, as Luca is just duvalier, revive people? Does their psy energy act as a mock-defibrillation? Furthermore, how can he revive non-Psy characters such as Qudssi, when he has no energy to speak of?

Finally, I am personally for the Psy-Energy theory, as it is the more pratical one, yet their is not enough evidence to say one side over another is correct. And, if I may speak on the Dead People's behalf, I think that they find it werid that for all of TSoG you are led to believe that spirits are dead people, yet in this one book it says otherwise. It seems werid that Craig would add that little snippet in at the end.
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Ertxiem

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2012, 09:52:46 AM »

It is more likely that Criag is trying to spare some people's feelings.  Like how parents don't tell their young children that Santa isn't real, Craig doesn't want to ruin people's denial about what spirits really are.  Based on the stubborn, irrational replies that I get, it is clearly upsetting for some to hear that spirits aren't the souls of the dead.  I, on the other hand, don't want to encourage people to live in their delusional world where the toothfairy is real and bad things never happen.
Even if this is besides the point (and not mentioning the tone), I feel I have to write something about it.
It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
C'mon give us some credit - we all know that TSoG is a game and not an exact replica of reality! We're just trying to extrapolate what the TSoG world is from the info we get from all TRPG games. And have some fun along the way.
There is some wishful thinking in the arguments used for and against each theory - even your arguments, SmartyPants (read again what I quoted from you). That is natural on a debate... we're humans (or so I think.. but perhaps I'm a spirit of a dead cow).
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2012, 11:21:29 PM »

Another loophole: if Soul Charges are the 'spirits' of the undead, and spirits are a person's psy energy/power, then how can Duvalier, as Luca is just duvalier, revive people? Does their psy energy act as a mock-defibrillation? Furthermore, how can he revive non-Psy characters such as Qudssi, when he has no energy to speak of?
Quote from: Craig's description of Soul Suck
Soul Suck – an attack that siphons an enemy's psy defenses into raw psy energy usable by the attacker. For reasons that no one understands, an enemy can actually be killed by Soul Suck once its defenses collapse. When this happens, the attacker captures its energy, which becomes available for later use...
Based on the discription, the captured "energy" doesn't sound like a soul or spirit.  Since Craig has intentionally tried to make spirit techniques into enigmas, there is not much to go on when it comes to how reviving works.  My best guess is that a fitted soul charge (whatever it really is) jump starts the nervous system.
Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
Another theory is that soul charges somehow have fate turn back time for the dead character.

Finally, I am personally for the Psy-Energy theory, as it is the more pratical one, yet their is not enough evidence to say one side over another is correct. And, if I may speak on the Dead People's behalf, I think that they find it werid that for all of TSoG you are led to believe that spirits are dead people, yet in this one book it says otherwise. It seems werid that Craig would add that little snippet in at the end.
That is how a discovery plot twist works.  TSoG allows the players to assume that spirits are dead people untill the twist after crypt 4 reveals that spirits have been creations of Duvalier's mind the whole time.   To ignore the The Spirit Within in TSoG is like assuming that Bruce Willis's character is still alive at the end of "The Sixth Sense".

It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people, so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.

Ertxiem

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2012, 03:47:36 AM »

Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
Another theory is that soul charges somehow have fate turn back time for the dead character.
That works for the main character because we have to replay the battle (hopefully with success) but not for the other characters because they will not have the chance to relive the events that lead to their death.
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Chocobo_Fan

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2012, 06:28:05 AM »

There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.
By all means, feel free to compare your opponents to holocaust deniers, that doesn't reflect badly on you at all. =_=

The point at which you are saying such ludicrous things is the point at which you need to take some time off from this discussion, I think. You are taking this far too seriously.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2012, 01:39:06 PM »

Chocobo_Fan, further proves my point by not contributing anything to the discussion.  Lacking any rational counterpoint, s/he decides to directly criticize me instead.

Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
Another theory is that soul charges somehow have fate turn back time for the dead character.
That works for the main character because we have to replay the battle (hopefully with success) but not for the other characters because they will not have the chance to relive the events that lead to their death.
While turning back time isn't my favorite theory, it does make sense.  Based on the powers of Malignus, we know psychic control over time is possible.  Psychokinetic shields further protect units from injury, yet there hasn't been any actual supernatural healing in Cera Bella besides reviving.  Soul charges must do more than rewake the body, because returning someone to consciousness wouldn't do much good when the character still has severe burns from a pyro blast or a huge hole in the chest from a spear.  If a fitted soul charge could reverse time for the character, then it could take the character's body back to a time before they received a fatal injury. Edit: the body isn't actually healed during the revival process. 

And I off topic off after Exrtxiem redirect the conversation towards reviving.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2012, 03:11:48 PM »

Quote
Chocobo_Fan, further proves my point by not contributing anything to the discussion.  Lacking any rational counterpoint, s/he decides to directly criticize me instead.

I have already given you my rational evidence and counterpoints. You have dismissed them all with irrational non-arguments and unproven assumptions that you pass off as fact. If you do not wish to discuss this rationally, I see no point in continuing the conversation.

(Also, I'm male, for future reference.)
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ArtDrake

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2012, 09:12:38 PM »

I don't know if this is at all relevant, but what Smarts is saying is reminding me of the system for human transmutation in Fullmetal Alchemist. Like, you could rearrange the carbon in a dead guy's body if you wanted to make them look nice again, but to make them functional and alive, you have to use human soul energy.

Of course, everything starts to remind you of Fullmetal Alchemist when you've been watching it for five days straight.
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Steelfist

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2012, 02:23:03 PM »

I rather think my summary of the the flaws in your reasoning, SmartyPants, is still valid. And you ignored it completely. Referring back to your earlier statement (that if no argument is presented, your view is, by default, superior), does that not mean that you have conceded?

@SmartyPants:

I know what 'The Spirit Within' says. It's fairly clear. And you can quote it to your heart's content. However, the source is suspect, as you can in no way prove the book to be true or false (for reasons already mentioned and dismissed by yourself using what I can only call cherry picking) - and that is the way Craig prefers it, as evidenced by his avoidance of revealing the existence or lack thereof of Yawah. So, I feel fully able to dismiss an argument based of the aforementioned points.

Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned. So they are either recreated or dissipated (Not sure who'd be recreating them - but then, that's your side of the argument, isn't it?).

A spirit could simply be an accidental projection, or it could be a sentient psy imprint made at the moment of death. Either is possible, in Cera Bella.

One of the important things to do when debating is to avoid dismissing hard facts with non-facts, as it makes you look foolish. It's a good idea to check before doing so - as in the case of the reappearance of spirits.

It is entirely possible that Craig added an alternate theory to provide an alternate explanation, and this isn't foolish, because many people would prefer an alternate explanation to spirits. Believing in either is a choice, disagreeing with you is not 'foolish'.

Thank you for your understanding.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing those who disagree with you to holocaust deniers and global warming deniers.
It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people, so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!
There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.
We are arguing with your evidence (Such as it is; one highly suspect book). Not denying its existence. In any case, your argument that the spirits being dead people is unlikely is confounded by the existence of psy powers in Cera Bella - which are also rather unlikely. Games such as this require a suspension of disbelief.

Our replies are not stubborn and irrational, as we are drawing on evidence. I can only surmise that you have an irrational bias against the possibility that spirits are dead people which is forcing you to recycle the evidence you possess, rather than concede that an equal possibility exists and it is a matter of choice. People like you - people who are uncomfortable with the concept of the spirits being dead people - is likely the reason the aforesaid alternative exists.

If you view your previous posts from the objective perspective you idolize, you will realize that this is a mostly civil argument interspersed by your rudeness and increasingly incoherent arguments.

Before criticizing another for direct criticism of yourself, recall that you did just compare them to a holocaust denier.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2012, 05:05:14 PM »

We are rather off topic, so I going to try to get the topic back on path.  If you want to continue to argue that The Spirit Within is conspiracy designed to confuse and lie the reader, then I suggest finding a new topic.

I always imagined that spirits were like a highly dense liquid held together by the spirit's psy defence [mental integrity].  Physical attacks would not cause real damage to a spirit's liquid body, but it would disrupt the spirit's ability to hold itself together.  More powerful spirits have great enough control of their psy defence [mental integrity] that they would be unfazed by physical attacks.  The spirit weapons will be dense enough to cause damage to physical beings.
I like this theory, that a spirit is held together by a mind shield. As we know, a mind shield can be affected by both physical and psy attacks. And when the mind shield breaks, the spirit dissipates.
I quite like the idea that it's some kind of solid state shield, but that would mean that Psy Defence and Psy Power are the same for spirits - and they aren't, because psy power would dictate your ability to keep one going and moving. In addition, that would result in a constant, severe drain on power, and would probably prevent them regenerating power. Which they do, between battles.
Spirits are made up of psy energy, which has the properties of a liquid in its physical form.  The only thing that gives shape to the liquid psy energy is the spirit's telekinetic powers densely compacting the liquid into a human form.  Spirits are not held together by mind shields, but rather, spirits need to keep their mental integrity (TRPG1's name for "hit points") to prevent themselves from dissipating.

On the other hand, how close are Cygnus' duplicates to a ghost?
Maybe Cygnus's multiples are made in similar ways as spirits.  While the subconscious creation of a telepath is a spirit, the conscious creation would be a multiple.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2012, 07:08:05 PM »

Hm. This is nitpicky, but I'm curious as to why you would think psy energy functions like a liquid when given physical form. Why not a gas? Indeed, a gas would make more sense, since spirits are described as "dissipating" when defeated. Gases are the only substances that can dissipate, really.
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SmartyPants

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Re: What are Spirits made of
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 10:08:21 AM »

Liquid would be better because a highly dense liquid would be more likely to do melee damage than a gas.
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