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Author Topic: TsoG General Improvements Thread  (Read 9570 times)

cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2010, 05:55:56 PM »

By archer, I mean a unit that can shoot other units from a medium distance away, sort of like a ranged support unit (which is what they are).
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Presentiment

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2010, 06:03:10 PM »

And as I've stated, Malis and the Hero do anything Rahel can better than she can.
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cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2010, 06:13:07 PM »

There is only one hero, and Malis can't hit three enemies at once. Having two people who can hit multiple enemies is better than having just one enemy that can hit multiple enemies.
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Presentiment

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2010, 06:27:21 PM »

You're assuming, of course, that three enemies line up for Rahel to shoot them.

And you're forgetting how much more powerful Malis is, and missing the point. Once new characters are introduced, unless Rahel does something new she will become obsolete.
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cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2010, 06:35:52 PM »

Well, hopefully, at least one of the ideas suggested for Rahel will be put in the game.
Hitting at least two enemies with split shot 2 is not as hard as you think.
Since you get Rahel earlier, you have the opportunity to train her before you even meet Malis. When Malis first joined my team, she was much weaker than Rahel.
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Presentiment

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2010, 06:37:23 PM »

There isn't any point in hurting an enemy if you don't kill them.

Also, your point about Malis getting to your team later is irrelevant.
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cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2010, 06:46:16 PM »

If you significantly wound an enemy, you can kill them with the next character.
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Also, your point about Malis getting to your team later is irrelevant.
When Malis got to my team, Rahel was very powerful, much more powerful than Malis. She could kill enemies with one or two hits, while Malis could barely do anything. The fact that Malis gets to your team later means that she is under trained when you get her, which means that Rahel is more powerful than Malis at the moment.
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Zackirus

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2010, 06:55:56 PM »

Okay enough with the bickering both Rahel and Malis have their Pros and Cons

Rahel:

Pros:
- Can hit a lot of enemies at once
- has great range
- Can finish off enemies that the other teamates missed

Cons:
- Can be boxed In
- Can't get around much
- Some shots hard hard to line up

Malis:

Pros:
- Can move almost anywhere on the Map
- Has a wide range of attacks
- Can heal herself

Cons:
- Weak when you get her
- Low health
- Attacks Eat up a lot of her PsP
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Presentiment

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2010, 07:56:20 PM »

If you significantly wound an enemy, you can kill them with the next character.
Quote
Also, your point about Malis getting to your team later is irrelevant.
When Malis got to my team, Rahel was very powerful, much more powerful than Malis. She could kill enemies with one or two hits, while Malis could barely do anything. The fact that Malis gets to your team later means that she is under trained when you get her, which means that Rahel is more powerful than Malis at the moment.

That doesn't prove anything. It means you need to upgrade Malis. I don't care how strong your Rahel is, if the Hero and Malis have similar stats they will cover what Rahel can do and more, and you have an extra slot to put a different teammate in.

When you hurt something, it still packs the same punch as if it had full HP. On the other hand, if you kill something, it can no longer attack. That saves your team HP. Rather than thinking of in terms of how much damage you deal, think of how much HP you save your team per action.
Okay enough with the bickering both Rahel and Malis have their Pros and Cons

Rahel:

Pros:
- Can hit a lot of enemies at once
- has great range
- Can finish off enemies that the other teamates missed

Cons:
- Can be boxed In
- Can't get around much
- Some shots hard hard to line up

Malis:

Pros:
- Can move almost anywhere on the Map
- Has a wide range of attacks
- Can heal herself

Cons:
- Weak when you get her
- Low health
- Attacks Eat up a lot of her PsP


Malis does two of Rahel's jobs for her better than her: range and finishing. Because of her speed, her Shadow Blast/Mind Blast can reach farther than any of Rahels attacks except in select situations where all the possible areas she can attack from are blocked.

All your cons are not actually cons for Malis. If she is weak, level her up. She has much better Health than Rahel; her health is actually the second highest in the game so far (unless Hero with Blood Orb is counted as a unit), and her PsP is also the second highest. Her main weakness is that unless you level Shadow Blast up a lot, she has no strong move. But once you level it up enough it becomes one of your team's strongest abilities.

Rahel is too situational. She needs all her enemies to line up for her for her attacks to be successful. Instead of being AOE attacks, Split Shot 1@2 are mostly used for shooting around corners.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 08:06:40 PM by Presentiment »
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cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2010, 08:43:56 PM »

If Rahel and the Main have similar stats, they can cover what Malis can do and more. It goes both ways.
Also, if Rahel does more damage than Malis, then she can kill a unit that Malis would be unable to kill.
If you don't like Rahel, fine. We have different strategies. If you think she is weak, you need to upgrade her, just like Malis. She deals plenty of damage, and she can damage the enemy without having to take hits.
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Presentiment

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2010, 08:57:26 PM »

If Rahel and the Main have similar stats, they can cover what Malis can do and more.

Wrong. Because neither have the speed to maneuver, they are highly subject to what the AI does. Malis can get behind enemies easily. Malis and Arman are your Make An Opportunity players, whereas the others are Wait For An Opportunity players.

Also, if Rahel does more damage than Malis, then she can kill a unit that Malis would be unable to kill.

The only problem being Rahel will rarely do more damage than Malis/Hero
If you don't like Rahel, fine. We have different strategies. If you think she is weak, you need to upgrade her, just like Malis.

I do not follow. My point was not 'Rahel is weak'. My point was, rather, "There is no point in having Rahel if you have more useful players, so Rahel should be improved." If Malis and the Main serve the same niche as Rahel, it doesn't matter how different our strategies are, we should still agree, and we don't.
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cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2010, 09:08:53 PM »

a) I am a wait for an opportunity player, which means that Rahel has her advantages to me.
b) Rahel's bow does as much damage as mind blast when Malis is leveled up as high as Rahel and cost less. While split shot 2 deals slightly less damage than shadow blast, it cost less, has better range, and hits more. Since you can level up Rahel from the very beginning, Rahel will do more damage than Malis when you first get Malis.
c) Malis fits better in the assassin niche. She gets behind the enemy and attacks them but exposes herself. The hero is what ever niche you make him. Rahel is a ranged support unit who attacks units without exposing herself. Malis doesn't serve in the same niche Rahel does.
Though I wouldn't mind if Rahel got an upgrade, I am perfectly happy the way she is.
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Presentiment

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2010, 09:22:26 PM »

a) I am a wait for an opportunity player, which means that Rahel has her advantages to me.
b) Rahel's bow does as much damage as mind blast when Malis is leveled up as high as Rahel and cost less. While split shot 2 deals slightly less damage than shadow blast, it cost less, has better range, and hits more. Since you can level up Rahel from the very beginning, Rahel will do more damage than Malis when you first get Malis.
c) Malis fits better in the assassin niche. She gets behind the enemy and attacks them but exposes herself. The hero is what ever niche you make him. Rahel is a ranged support unit who attacks units without exposing herself. Malis doesn't serve in the same niche Rahel does.
Though I wouldn't mind if Rahel got an upgrade, I am perfectly happy the way she is.

On the other hand, any unit which can make an opportunity can also make one.

Shadow Blast does far more damage than any of Rahel's attacks as long as you level it up.

Malis can do Rahel's job and her job as well, and the Hero with Light Blast/Shadow Vortex/Pyro Hail is basically a better version of Rahel, and even with Cryo Cross, still mostly fits the part.

But let's put this behind us so we can discuss other topics, no?

A suggestion: In the tutorial, change the text from black so it is readable against the background.

Also, having bigger doors in the map editor would be nice. The tiny doors make the characters look like giants.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 09:28:55 PM by Presentiment »
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SmartyPants

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2010, 09:38:02 AM »

Well, hopefully, at least one of the ideas suggested for Rahel will be put in the game.
Hitting at least two enemies with split shot 2 is not as hard as you think.
Since you get Rahel earlier, you have the opportunity to train her before you even meet Malis. When Malis first joined my team, she was much weaker than Rahel.
You overtrain, because you don't have much to do in an incomplete game.  When I played through without continuos gold farming, Rahel knew Split Shot 1 and I was able to update Malis to Rahel level.  I think the reason one gets Malis after Mission 3 is so you can use the gold won to upgrade Malis to the levels of your teamates.

Malis's niche is to attack one-on-one.
Rahel's niche is long ranged attacks.

cyso

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Re: TsoG General Improvements Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2010, 10:12:45 AM »

The one thing Rahel can definitely do better than Malis is hit the enemy without exposing herself. She doesn't need much health because she should be exposed to much enemy fire.
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