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Author Topic: What's your religion?  (Read 67646 times)

Steelfist

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #390 on: March 21, 2011, 12:56:50 PM »

To clarify my original 'genocidal maniac' point, which may have been misunderstood. I wasn't merely talking about indirect genocide. The bible mentions entire populations that god simply - wiped off the map. Real nice guy, yeah?

Don't know about you, but I wouldn't go out of my way to earn an eternity with Hitler; Why would I do it for an even worse genocidal maniac?
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bugfartboy

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #391 on: March 21, 2011, 03:10:10 PM »

Quote
To clarify my original 'genocidal maniac' point, which may have been misunderstood. I wasn't merely talking about indirect genocide. The bible mentions entire populations that god simply - wiped off the map. Real nice guy, yeah?
You're looking outside of context. Sodom and Gomorrah were the absolute worst places on the planet. So much to the point where Lot and his family moved out because they were warned that it would be destroyed by two angels, who were men, that the city tried to rape. The guys of the city that is. Now think about it.
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Idozen Cair

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #392 on: March 22, 2011, 01:23:58 AM »

I think there's something bit wrong here-God's all powerful right? Then why didn't he destroy Satan in the first place then? (I think Satan is the source if sin, not Adam and Eve, am I wrong?)
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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #393 on: March 22, 2011, 07:40:10 AM »

Would destroying him really be punishment if he simply ceased to exist? Not really.

Quote from: Revalation 20:1-3
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

NIV 2011

And by destroying him, where would our free will go? If people no longer got a chance to follow the devil, would there be free will?
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ArtDrake

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #394 on: March 22, 2011, 05:20:44 PM »

Yes. I don't follow the devil. We can choose to reject God. We can choose a career. We can choose to help people, or to stand oblivious.

There is very much free will aside from sin.
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cyso

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #395 on: March 30, 2011, 08:40:24 PM »

You aren't choosing to follow the devil in the sense that you aren't following after him and deliberately trying to do things that you think he would like. However, by choosing to live your life in rebellion to God, you are following in his footsteps.

I think Buggy's right about the free will thing. Without temptation, we would walk the only path to walk. With temptation, we have to make choices.

Quote
To clarify my original 'genocidal maniac' point, which may have been misunderstood. I wasn't merely talking about indirect genocide. The bible mentions entire populations that god simply - wiped off the map. Real nice guy, yeah?
You're looking outside of context. Sodom and Gomorrah were the absolute worst places on the planet. So much to the point where Lot and his family moved out because they were warned that it would be destroyed by two angels, who were men, that the city tried to rape. The guys of the city that is. Now think about it.
To put more emphasis on how messed up the place was, here's a biblical quote.
Genesis 19:4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.
It's kind of ridiculous when all the men in the city want to rape 2 guys/angels who come to the town. Then, when Lot told them (all the men in the city) no, they tried to break down the door.
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Zackirus

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #396 on: March 30, 2011, 09:01:21 PM »

You aren't choosing to follow the devil in the sense that you aren't following after him and deliberately trying to do things that you think he would like. However, by choosing to live your life in rebellion to God, you are following in his footsteps.

What about an Agnostic person then? I choose to believe in neither, what does that make me? Switzerland?

I think it is unfair to say that their is only one option to take in life. I think of it as a simple math problem. For example: 72. I can do 7 x 7 = 49 or I can do 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 49. Both answers are correct, its just that one simply took longer to do.   
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cyso

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #397 on: March 30, 2011, 09:10:25 PM »

When you are an agnostic person, you chose to live your life apart from God. It's not rebellion like trying to replace God or something like that. It's more like telling God, "Screw you, I'm going to do my own thing." Not believing in God may be why you live apart from God, but that doesn't mean that you don't live apart from God. Why someone does something doesn't change what they do.

There are many ways to solve a math problem. However, there are only two types of answers: right or not right. I'm not saying that you are either a Christian or a serial killer. I'm saying that you are either a Christian and reconciled with God or not a Christian and not reconciled with God.
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Zackirus

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #398 on: March 30, 2011, 09:20:45 PM »

I don't believe I'm telling God:
"Screw you, I'm going to do my own thing."
I think I am more of telling him (if he exists) "I have not decided whether or not I believe in you, until more evidence is given, I remain agnostic".

what about other religions, you say that you are either Christan and Reconciled or Not, where do other religions fit in on that?

I, personally, think that it is very dangerous to see the world in black and white, because levels of grey do exist...
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cyso

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #399 on: March 30, 2011, 09:55:22 PM »

So you are telling him politely that you don't believe in him and that until you do, you are going to live however you want as if he didn't exist. It's a lot nicer than saying screw you, I admit, but you are still saying that you want to do your own thing and don't really care if he exists.
The last part (don't really care if he exists) is an assumption. I assume that figuring out whether or not God exists is not of major concern to you, if it is of any concern to you.  I assume that, in your normal day, you don't think about God.  I assume you live your life as if God were not real, and that you really don't care if God may be real as much as you care about doing the things you like to do. I assume you are not trying to discover whether or not God exists. I assume you are not looking for God.  If any of these assumptions are wrong (and I wouldn't be particularly surprised if a few were) say so and tell me which ones are wrong.
If they are right, I have question for you. If you aren't looking for God, would you expect to see him even if he was there? You are agnostic. You believe that his existence is unknowable. If you have you don't look, how do you expect to see?

Of course, my assumption could be completely wrong. Sorry if it is.

Other religions fit into the Not Christian category. I'm sure a Muslim or Hindu wouldn't mind if I classified him or her as a Non-Christian, because they aren't Christians, and they know it. I'm not dividing people into groups of either x or y, with no other options. I'm dividing it into either x or not x.
An example of what I'm NOT doing: polling people and asking if they were Republican, and if they said no, writing them down as a Democrat, then making a cute little Democrat-Republican Pie Chart.
What I am doing: polling people and, if they say Republican, writing them down as that, and it they say they aren't Republican, writing them down in the category of "Not Republican." Then, I make a cute little Republican-Not Republican chart.
I don't say you are this or that, I say you are this or not this.
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Zackirus

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #400 on: March 30, 2011, 10:28:31 PM »

I have tried to look for God and I come up with mixed results. Its true that I don't look for God all the time, and I live my life like he doesn't exist some days, but their are days when I do try to look for signs of God and Vice Versa. Your right, whether or not God exists is is not a major concern of mine (but is a concern). I would rather focus on issues in the world and in my life. Does this Girl Like me? Can we solve Poverty? Am I going to get a Good Mark on my Math Test? etc. However, saying this, I still would like know the answer.   

Being agnostic doesn't mean that you search (all the time) for whether or not God exists, but rather is a neutral ground where you can say, with the evidence I have found, I believe that God may or may not (or the existence of God is unknowable, as you said) exist.

I see, but still you said:

I'm saying that you are either a Christian and reconciled with God or not a Christian and not reconciled with God

I understand but putting Muslims in the "Not Christian/Not Reconciled" is not fair. Why can't they be "Not Christian/Reconciled"? They are Recoiled with God, and not Christian, so it makes sense.

It would be more fair to say "Christian and Recoiled With God" and "Non Christian and Recoiled/Not Recoiled With God.   
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cyso

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #401 on: March 30, 2011, 10:57:52 PM »

I see, but still you said:

I'm saying that you are either a Christian and reconciled with God or not a Christian and not reconciled with God

I understand but putting Muslims in the "Not Christian/Not Reconciled" is not fair. Why can't they be "Not Christian/Reconciled"? They are Recoiled with God, and not Christian, so it makes sense.

It would be more fair to say "Christian and Recoiled With God" and "Non Christian and Recoiled/Not Recoiled With God.   
If I and my religion are correct, than Christians are the only people reconciled with God. If the Muslims are correct, they are the only people reconciled with God. Christianity teaches only one way to heaven. So does Islam. So, we can't both be right about the one way to be reconciled with God if our ways are different and we believe it's the only way. If it isn't the only way, then neither of us are right, because we both preach one way only. Either I am wrong or I am right. If I am right, there are two groups, Christian or Non Christians. The Christians are reconciled with God, the Non Christians are not. If I'm not right, I don't think my grouping matters very much.

There is only one way to God. You might think it is unfair. Think about it, though. No matter how many ways you work 72, there is only one answer. You don't have to recite a certain prayer or say a certain creed to become a Christian. You don't have to live a certain kind of life before you are saved. How you are led to become a Christian (by reading something, by hearing something, etc.) can vary, just like how you get the answer to a math problem. The thing that can't vary is the solution. There is only one solution to our sins, Jesus. How your life leads you to him isn't important. What's important is getting there.

Think of it like this: There are many ways to be led to Christ, just like there are many ways to be led to Christ. To become a Christian, you must accept what Jesus did and trust and believe in him, just like to get the answer right on a test, you have to put the answer down. No matter how you work the problem, you still have to put the answer down. There's no other way to submit the answer, just like there is no other way of becoming a Christian. You don't become a Christian by agreeing with what a pastor says or thinking it sounds nice, just like you don't get points if you just work out a problem in your head. Finally, to be reconciled with God, you must be a Christian, just like in a test, you must put the right answer to get the question correct.
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Zackirus

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #402 on: March 30, 2011, 11:44:52 PM »

If I and my religion are correct, than Christians are the only people reconciled with God. If the Muslims are correct, they are the only people reconciled with God. Christianity teaches only one way to heaven. So does Islam. So, we can't both be right about the one way to be reconciled with God if our ways are different and we believe it's the only way. If it isn't the only way, then neither of us are right, because we both preach one way only. Either I am wrong or I am right. If I am right, there are two groups, Christian or Non Christians. The Christians are reconciled with God, the Non Christians are not. If I'm not right, I don't think my grouping matters very much.

I understand now, I was thinking from a side agnostic perspective (sorry about that). You are completely right.

There is only one way to God. You might think it is unfair. Think about it, though. No matter how many ways you work 72, there is only one answer. You don't have to recite a certain prayer or say a certain creed to become a Christian. You don't have to live a certain kind of life before you are saved. How you are led to become a Christian (by reading something, by hearing something, etc.) can vary, just like how you get the answer to a math problem. The thing that can't vary is the solution. There is only one solution to our sins, Jesus. How your life leads you to him isn't important. What's important is getting there.

Think of it like this: There are many ways to be led to Christ, just like there are many ways to be led to Christ. To become a Christian, you must accept what Jesus did and trust and believe in him, just like to get the answer right on a test, you have to put the answer down. No matter how you work the problem, you still have to put the answer down. There's no other way to submit the answer, just like there is no other way of becoming a Christian. You don't become a Christian by agreeing with what a pastor says or thinking it sounds nice, just like you don't get points if you just work out a problem in your head. Finally, to be reconciled with God, you must be a Christian, just like in a test, you must put the right answer to get the question correct.

However, what if their is more than one answer to the question? For Example:

Your P.O.I (Point of Intersection) is (-3 , 2). Find the equation of two non-coincidental lines that pass through the P.O.I.

You could have y = x + 5 and y = -x - 1 or y = 2x + 8 and y = 2x - 4 and so on.

The Math
Equation One
  y = x + 5
- y = -x - 1 
  0 = 2x + 6
  x = -3

   y = x + 5
+ y = -x - 1 
   2y = 4
   y = 2

Equation Two
   y = 2x + 8
-  y = 2x - 4
   0 = 4x + 12
    x = -3

   y = 2x + 8
+  y = 2x - 4
   2y = 4
   y = 2

My (real) question is: are you sure God only has one answer?
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cyso

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #403 on: March 31, 2011, 01:18:31 AM »

Yes. I'm a Christian, so I believe there is only one answer. You're not a Christian though. So, I'm going to explain the problem, or why we have to be reconciled with God.
We don't follow God. We follow our own path. It may be intentional defiance or it may be lack of faith in God. The thing is, God is the creator and ruler of everything. He has the right to everything. He isn't a terrible ruler trying to harm his subjects or torture them. When we turn from him, it's about the equivalent of the servants of a good king or ruler refusing to do what he says and what the law demands and completely refusing to serve him, regardless of intent. This type of crime is treason. Even if you forget about all of the other bad things a person does, this crime alone is enough to earn death. God's punishment is not only the death of our bodies (separating our souls and spirits from our body) but the death of our spirits (separating our souls and spirits from him). This is basically what we ask for when we follow our own path apart from him, but it really sucks. I posted a little bit about hell a few posts back. Eternally separated from God, without hope.
So, that's why we need to be reconciled. We take off on our own path. We run away from God. We are apart from him, and need to come back to him, but our sins, our treason, separates us. We owe him a debt, a debt that must be paid. This is why works don't get you into heaven. You can't work your way to heaven. The good things you do don't erase the bad. I described us as running away from God. This is like the parable of the son that demanded his inheritance from his father, left with it, and spent it all. Living a good life and being careful with your money doesn't do you any good if you don't have any money and you took all the money from your father anyways, just like living good won't help you. You may do less bad things, you may sin less, but you never really stop sinning and you still haven't done a thing about your previous sins. All you might do is slow your present rate of sin. Those sins will get you into hell.
That is why I think good works don't cut it with God. You don't even really stop sinning, so it really doesn't matter. You can work and work and work, but you can't undo what you've done. You can try to lessen the effects, but you can't erase what you did from history. Not spending money when you owe debt is a good idea, but unless you can pay back the debt, it doesn't do you much good. You've got to pay back the debt, but you can't. Works don't pay back anything. So, any idea of getting to heaven by works is out.
You may be wondering why God doesn't just say oh well, they all screwed up, I'll let them slide. After all, he's supposed to be all loving. The thing is, he's also just. So, even though he loves you and he really doesn't like to do it, he will send people to hell. A truly just judge demands the penalty be paid and that the law be upheld. Someone has to pay the penalty. Not that God is out for blood, but the debt must be paid. You must pay for something like a speeding ticket in human courts; in God's court, you must pay for treason, and the price is your life.
So, we have to pay with our life. We can't pay with another person's life because they have to pay themselves can't really offer anything. They owe debt too. They are going to have to pay with their life. They can't give you more life because they don't have extra life to give. Now, if we had extra life, if our sinful selves could be put to death and somehow we could still live, we would be fine.
The Jews used sacrifices to pay. The thing is, animal sacrifices don't mean too much. You killed a perfect lamb. It was spotless. It never did anything that bad. It was a lamb. A lamb can't exactly give you new life so that when your sinful self dies, you don't. There isn't really anything special about a lamb, except that it was symbolic (which is why people in the old testament don't all go to hell. They put their trust in Jesus, but since he wasn't exactly around on Earth at the time, they demonstrated their trust by sacrificing lambs and other animals, which was symbolic of Jesus's death).
I think I've covered the way most religions try to pay for the debt. I think that most religions go along the lines of "work your way into happiness." Even the Jews had to sacrifice animals (and with all the associated rituals, it was work). Doing good deeds is fine. I am not in any way saying that you shouldn't do good deeds, but they aren't enough. Most of the other religions will scream at you to work harder to gain paradise. You can never work hard enough. You can't work so hard that it's like all of the screw ups you made in life are erased like they never existed. The other religions want you to do good things, but they can't help you do them. They can't help you be reconciled to God. They can just tell you what to do. I could spit out a bunch of things for you not to do, but that doesn't really help you. There is a quote from a famous Christian author John Bunyan stating "the law commands but gives me neither feet nor hands" and that basically sums up all of the work religions. You can tell someone to work hard, but you can't make them. You can tell someone to avoid all sorts of sins, but you can't make them do anything. In the quote, he was referring to the old testament law (I think) but it applies to every law. There is no power in the law. Principles may be fine, rules may be good, but they have no power to save you. You need life, not rules. If you just try to live by rules, you will fail. They can't hold you to them. They give you no power to be perfect. They can't cancel out your sins. They just serve to show you that you fail. That's one good thing about laws. When you screw them up plenty, you realize that you can't do it. You can't be perfect. You will sin. Laws expose sin and wrong doing (which some people may need). They do not correct them or pay for them, which is what we all need.
Right now, we have a fairly gloomy picture. We can't work our way into heaven, because we will fail anyways, and our works don't erase our sins. The penalty for sin is death. Not pleasant. We need new life. We can't exactly borrow our neighbors, because they need new life too. But, God does love us. So, he sends the solution. Jesus.
Jesus, fully God, but also fully human. God in flesh. Called the son of God because he was conceived in Mary by the power of God. Being fully God, he had the power to resist temptation. He could live with God because he was God. He didn't run away from God. He lived perfect. Being God, he had life. He also had no debt to pay. We, on the other hand, need life, life that doesn't have any debt to pay. We need him. He really doesn't need us, but he loves us. So, he takes our punishment. He takes our debt. He takes being cut off from God. He takes what we should have to pay. He does a bit more. He takes our sins and puts them on himself. He takes those sins to the grave. He then raises from the dead. He is God. Death does not have power over him.
He takes our sins, and we gain his righteousness. He takes our death, and we take his life. It's like our sins and our sinful self is crucified and dies, and our new self, the one full of Jesus, lives. Not that Christians are perfect. We have our new life, but the old one doesn't completely go until the end. Our sin is paid for, though. So, any punishment that should be ours is Jesus's. It's like he steps up, takes our sin on himself and brings it to the grave, then gives us life (I know I've already said this). We are no longer condemned by God, because all our sin is on Jesus. We are free from our debt.
So, do we go on sinning and living our life like we did before? The answer is no. Okay, we still sin, but our lives are different. Why? Because Christ lives in us. He lives through us. So, we still sin, because we are still prone to sin, but we do not find pleasure in sin because we have Jesus living in us, and he does not like sin. So, we try to do what is right. We still screw up. But, we don't use Christ's payment as a free pass to do whatever we want and sin however we like because we don't like to sin. His nature lives in us. It is what survives in the end. Our old bodies will die. Our souls will not, and we will get new bodies. Our old self will be completely gone.
So, we looked at our debt. We looked at why works don't reconcile us to God. We look at how, when Jesus took our sins, we are reconciled with God because Jesus carried them away and paid away our debt, so God accepts us like he wanted to. I probably didn't do the best of jobs at the end, so if you have any questions, please ask. If you think there is another way we could be reconciled that I didn't cover, please tell me.
The full quote from the Christian author and my ending note:
"Run, John, run the law commands,
But gives me neither feet nor hands;
Far better news the gospel brings:
It bids me fly; it gives me wings."
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Idozen Cair

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Re: What's your religion?
« Reply #404 on: March 31, 2011, 05:40:07 AM »

Wow, cyso, that was ... pretty much the most convincing post on this topic. I can't help feeling I should turn to Christ, as I'm currently athiest.
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