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As the Shadowling Queen, would you revive Noctus?

Definitely
Yes
Maybe
No
Hell No

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Author Topic: Is Noctus alive?  (Read 29192 times)

KZ

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2010, 08:26:36 AM »

True, a lot of this is based on speculaion only. I am just highlighting different possibilities of what might've taken place.

I am not convinces that the Queen needs a corpse to revive anyone, since the Main is slain in the same way as everyone else, and she can revive all other teammates, be they Shadowlings, Spriggats or humans (even Golems) with ease. After all, if the Main is killed by a Mind Blast, then the body will bear no visible damage on it- it will be just the synapses giving way. The opposite would be when a teammate is burned to a crisp with Fire Breath, yet can be revived depsite the body being in a bad condition.


I am pretty sure both sides used deep scans and extraction techniques, as this was not a war "to win hearts and minds", but a war of survival. Under Nelis, Spriggats had virtually no chance of appealing to the general Shadowling populace, but what they could do is fight their battles in a manner that wouldn't lead to them being called "ravaging murderers" (ie no civilan massacres, etc). I agree that the Shadowling forces surrendered when she was slain, but it might've taken some time for the message to reach them- after all, they didn't have a direct psy contact with her (cf Shadowboxer's comments in TRPG2) and they'd need a messenger to deliver the news, and they then had to believe it, and then they had to decidce that fighting on was pointless. Also, although the Shadowlings reverse-engineered the Energy Golems by end of mission 7, only Nelis had them so far and the Spriggats would've still had the Energy Golem advantage on the battlefield for a short while (and they had Psy Academy help as well), so in the short run, the Spriggats might've not fared too badly.

Back on topic of Noctus being alive: I guess we'll have to wait and see if any further mention will be made of him in TSoG, as otherwise this question will remain open-eneded. There is always the possibility of him being involved with the Shadowling Loyalists.
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SmartyPants

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2010, 09:01:03 AM »

I am not convinces that the Queen needs a corpse to revive anyone, since the Main is slain in the same way as everyone else, and she can revive all other teammates, be they Shadowlings, Spriggats or humans (even Golems) with ease. After all, if the Main is killed by a Mind Blast, then the body will bear no visible damage on it- it will be just the synapses giving way. The opposite would be when a teammate is burned to a crisp with Fire Breath, yet can be revived depsite the body being in a bad condition.
If the Main dies, the leaderless team would also die. With the entire team dead, nobody will be able to bring the bodies to Somnus for revival.  Revive doesn't just bring people people back to life, it completly heals them too.  Despite the damage, if there is a corpse, the Shadowling Queen can revive anyone to full health.

I am pretty sure both sides used deep scans and extraction techniques, as this was not a war "to win hearts and minds", but a war of survival. Under Nelis, Spriggats had virtually no chance of appealing to the general Shadowling populace, but what they could do is fight their battles in a manner that wouldn't lead to them being called "ravaging murderers" (ie no civilan massacres, etc). I agree that the Shadowling forces surrendered when she was slain, but it might've taken some time for the message to reach them- after all, they didn't have a direct psy contact with her (cf Shadowboxer's comments in TRPG2) and they'd need a messenger to deliver the news, and they then had to believe it, and then they had to decidce that fighting on was pointless. Also, although the Shadowlings reverse-engineered the Energy Golems by end of mission 7, only Nelis had them so far and the Spriggats would've still had the Energy Golem advantage on the battlefield for a short while (and they had Psy Academy help as well), so in the short run, the Spriggats might've not fared too badly.
The Spriggats would not have won the battle until the Shadowlings surrender.  The Dissidents had their Energy Golem workshop destroyed and the Empire is now producing their own Energy Golems(who says Nelis is the only shadowling with energy golems?). Both Tastidian and Dean Lukas knew that the Spriggats didn't stand a chance against the Empire's forces, so it is doubtful that Spriggats "were to overrun the Shadowlings". If the Spriggats would have won the battle before word that the queen is slain reaches them, then why does the Shadowling Empire win the war if the Main sides with Tastidian? After the battle, the war is over.  With the war over, there would not be any reason to torture the losing side.



As a human kidnapper and after being killed by a human, it is very likely that Noctus would join the Shadowling Loyalists.

KZ

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2010, 09:25:23 AM »

If the Main dies, the leaderless team would also die.

I definitely disagree with this statement. There are many occaisons when the Main dies accidently in battle, but the opposing forces are almost wiped oout, with the entire team alive- had the player been allowed to continue the battle, the player would've definitely won. This arises mostly from carelessness, or long difficult battles. Here are two contrasting examples: the Main gets killed during mission one against the Mech Captain, with only the latter remaining and all teammates alive and in full health- the Mech Captain doesn't stand a chance; the Main gets accidently killed from one of the three Spriggats assassins, when there is only one Spriggat remaining with 4 health and 3 teammates surviving. In both cases, the team can take the corpse and quickly leave the place. In the latter case, there are no other hostile forces in the area (the patrols have already been cleared and only 3 assassins were waiting for them), so it shouldn't be a problem for the team to back track (there is a clear path leading them out of the Great Forest).
Also, and these are killer examples, I think: the Main can die battling Giant Bugs in Somnus (ok, they can eat the body, but!), the Main can get killed by the Vargant or by Flavian. In two latter cases, this happens right under Tastidian's nose (he'll know, through the Slave Bracelet, if the slave is killed, and quickly hop on to find out why, and that's a very short trip to both Flavian's and to the Vargant's), the Main is killed with Mind Blasts, which would definitely leave the body intact. Flavian, being x-military, would not dare eat the dead Main, as he's the property of one of the most senior (if not the most senior) Shadowlings in Shadowling military, and he's just outside on the street- Flavin is no use to Tastidian, but the Main is. Also, Tastidian will react quickly to the Main getting killed and be there in no time at all, to prevent any feasting on the corpse (this applies equally well to the Vagrant case). Hence, the corpse is not the point in case of Nelis (but not Luca).


If the Main sides with Tastidian, it says that "eventually" the war is won, but that does take time, so in the long run, the tide of war goes against Spriggats, but in the short run, they might've managed to put up enough resistance for Shadowlings to get the message across to them.



I agree, Noctus and Shadowling Loyalists seem to be very well suited for each other.
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cyso

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 04:17:24 PM »

Quote
why does the Shadowling Empire win the war if the Main sides with Tastidian? After the battle, the war is over.  With the war over, there would not be any reason to torture the losing side.
Well, the academy was the last hope for the spriggats. If the academy remained, and the hero had been killed by the queen (so she would still be alive), the odds would be against the spriggats 3 to 2, but the spriggats might still have had a chance. After all, why would the Psy Academy side with the spriggats if they knew the spriggats were doomed, and that siding with the spriggats would just result in more academy deaths. Remember, Dean Lukas didn't know the hero was freed from Tastidian. If the spriggats were hopeless, the academy probably would have remained neutral and would have just tried to get more guards.
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SmartyPants

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 06:32:03 PM »

The academy sided with the Dissidents, because they didn't have any other alternative.  With a high rate of kidnapping, it is unlikely that parents would enroll their children at the academy.  The only way to stop the kidnapping, thereby saving the academy, was to side with the Empire's enemy.


I don't see Noctus doing well in civilain life.

cyso

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 07:25:35 PM »

Quote
The academy sided with the Dissidents, because they didn't have any other alternative.  With a high rate of kidnapping, it is unlikely that parents would enroll their children at the academy.  The only way to stop the kidnapping, thereby saving the academy, was to side with the Empire's enemy.

You're missing the point. If the academy knew the Dissidents were going to lose even with their intervention, they probably wouldn't have sided with the losing side. They probably would have increased security and maybe had some white capes guarding or patrolling the schools. Most people don't side with the side they know is going to lose. They just try to cut their own losses.
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SmartyPants

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 07:52:17 AM »

Your missing my point.  The Academy's kidnapping problem would drastically decrease the number of students who want to attend the school.  Without students there would not be any money to pay for teachers, guards, or anything else.  They chose to side with the losing side, because there wasn't another alternative like "cut their own losses".  They knew that the Dissindents were unable to win in conventional warfare, so that is why they planned to assassinate the Queen.


The Majority are leaning towards reviving Noctus. Does anyone want to stay on topic and explain why they would or would not revive Noctus?

KZ

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 11:29:31 AM »

Indeed, im2smart4u is right here, about the reasons for the Psy Academy to side with the Shadowlings- the latter weren't seeking an peaceful co-exitence, by disrupting the flow of life in the academy by constant kidnappings, and the only real threat to the militaristic expansion of the Shadowlings were the Spriggats. What is of interest is who esle did the Shadowlings fight in the last few thousand years, as evidenced by the book Anya read (as Spriggats were conquered, and Shadowlings didn't fight with humans from northern Cera Bella)?

As a military commander, it would probably be more efficient for Noctus to be revived and have his experience with him, rather than waste time in schooling a new commander. Then, Noctus might survive the end of the Shadow War and play a significant part in the Shadowling Loyalist movement. Thus, here are reasons, from in-game and from game-making points of view which might make it worth reviving Noctus.
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Ertxiem

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2010, 07:12:26 PM »

The Academy is probably located near some human cities. And the rulers of those cities wouldn't like to see humans kidnapped by other races and would probably declare war on the shadowlings, thereby bringing the Academy to the war.
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cyso

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2010, 07:48:50 PM »

I thought the academy tried to remain neutral with other forces, including other human cities. The only reason they allied with the spriggats was because they had no choice.
Quote
As a military commander, it would probably be more efficient for Noctus to be revived and have his experience with him, rather than waste time in schooling a new commander.
The queen might have seen Noctus as a failure of a commander since he was unable to prevent psy from sneaking into his camp and killing him. She might have thought that it would be better to get a new commander to replace him (since the shadowlings probably had some commander who just finished training) than to revive what she considered a failure.
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SmartyPants

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2010, 11:02:13 AM »

The Academy is probably located near some human cities. And the rulers of those cities wouldn't like to see humans kidnapped by other races and would probably declare war on the shadowlings, thereby bringing the Academy to the war.
The map in TRPG1 doesn't show any nearby cities.  The closest landmarks are the Great Forest and a large bog.

Quote
As a military commander, it would probably be more efficient for Noctus to be revived and have his experience with him, rather than waste time in schooling a new commander.
The queen might have seen Noctus as a failure of a commander since he was unable to prevent psy from sneaking into his camp and killing him. She might have thought that it would be better to get a new commander to replace him (since the shadowlings probably had some commander who just finished training) than to revive what she considered a failure.
Yes, he failed his mission, but he was defeated by a very powerful psy.  I am sure the Queen can cut Noctus some slack, because he lost to the person who defeats Cerzak.

KZ

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2010, 11:19:54 AM »

Indeed, from the way the Dean explained it, the Shadowlings put the Psy Academy in a no-win situation, so, even knowing that the Spriggats were losing the war, they sided with them (going via "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" route).

Given the Main's exceptional ability, and the fact that Noctus did notify Tastidian, but simply overestimated his own powers to keep the Main whilst Tastidian travelled, I think it's fair to say that such a mistake may be forgiven- plus, this is a unique, hubling experience which would be good for an over-confident commander. Hence, he might not be considered a failure per se, plus he had first-hand experience of fighting the Main directly- this info can be valuable to the Shadowlings.

As for nearby cities: methinks there is no large human settlement near Lake Alto or the Great Forest, save for human villages, with the Psy Academy being the biggest human settlement in the area- the world map, as im2msart4u correctly puts it, shows no major settlement around the Psy Academy.
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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2010, 06:30:03 PM »

if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down
The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.
im2smart4u i was just saying the possiblities it was possible for noctus to be brought back to life
but it was also possible she didnt bother because shadowlings hate humans and its also possible that the queen wouldnt try to bring him back after you beat him beat him
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SmartyPants

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2010, 06:43:28 PM »

if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down
The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.
im2smart4u i was just saying the possiblities it was possible for noctus to be brought back to life
but it was also possible she didnt bother because shadowlings hate humans and its also possible that the queen wouldnt try to bring him back after you beat him beat him
Yet she was okay with reviving the Main's fallen human comrades?  I don't think she has enough scorn towards humans to not revive a shadowling commander.

torugo

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Re: Is Noctus alive?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2010, 06:47:53 PM »

if the shadowling queen had a revival station than its possible that noctus could be alive
however the shadowling queen might not have even bothered to allow him considering how easliy you took him down
The Main was powerful enough to take down the Mechanic's Base, survive an assassination attempt, escape the Bug Pit, destroy the energy golem workshop, and defeat Cerzak.  Cut Noctus some slack for losing to a very powerful psy.
im2smart4u i was just saying the possiblities it was possible for noctus to be brought back to life
but it was also possible she didnt bother because shadowlings hate humans and its also possible that the queen wouldnt try to bring him back after you beat him beat him
Yet she was okay with reviving the Main's fallen human comrades?  I don't think she has enough scorn towards humans to not revive a shadowling commander.

probably because you were tasdidians slave the queens most trusted commander and she would make an exception for him
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