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[Deagonx]

Beating dead horses is bad for the soul.


ISLAM: Which according to a certain forum member is PEACEFUL.


Allow me to use the Qur'an to prove him wrong.


But first! Rules about this debate.

1st: No name calling, no one is a bigot for having views.
2nd: Don't state uncited facts. One member said God told moses to kill everyone or something along that lines. Quote the verse.
3rd: If someone posts a rather long reply, don't address the only part you find a flaw in. Rebuttal the whole arguement
4th: Most importantly! Do not disregard someones arguement or citations as 'bad interpretation' then refuse to argue it.


Women Rights

Question 1:

Does Islam require women to cover themselves?

Summary Answer:

Yes.  The reason is that it is supposed to curb the sexual appetites of passing men when women travel outside the home.  Women are also not allowed to travel by themselves, or be alone with a man who is not a relative.

Qur'an (24:31) - "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known."  The woman is not only supposed to cover herself, except with relatives, but to look down, so as to avoid making eye-contact with men.

Bukhari (6:321) - Muhammad is asked whether it is right for a young woman to leave her house without a veil.  He replies, "She should cover herself with the veil of her companion."


Question 2:

Why are rape victims punished by Islamic courts as adulterers?

Summary Answer:

Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses.  Women who allege rape, without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience, are actually confessing to having sex.  If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.


Qur'an (2:282) - Establishes that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's in court (there is no "he said/she said" gridlock in Islam).

Qur'an (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses (to adultery), flog them..."

Qur'an (24:13) - "Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah."

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."  There is no such thing as rape in marriage, as a man is permitted unrestricted sexual access to his wives.
 

Question 3:

Does Islam teach that a woman is worth less than a man?

Summary Answer:

Absolutely.  The only debatable point is by what degree.


Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).

Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage.  Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"




Violence:
From this oh-so-peaceful religion.


Question 1: Does Islam condone slavery? Does Islamic teaching allow Muslim men to keep women as sex slaves?


Summary Answer:Far from ignoring or condemning slavery, Islam condones the horrible institution like no other religion.

Muslims are encouraged to live in the way of Muhammad, who was a slave owner and trader.  He captured slaves in battle.  He had sex with his slaves.  And he instructed his men to do the same.  The Qur'an actually devotes more verses to making sure that Muslim men know they can keep women as sex slaves than it does to telling them to pray five times a day.

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"  This is a special command that Muhammad handed down to himself, allowing himself virtually unlimited sex.  Others are limited to four wives, but may also have sex with an unlimited number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."   This verse allows the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.  See also Qur'an (70:29-30).

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."  Even sex with married slaves is permissible.'

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed.  The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.




Question 2: Is Islam compatible with democracy?


Summary Answer: Islamic law is absolutely incompatible with democracy.  It is a theocratic system with Allah alone at its head.  Allah's law is interpreted by a ruling body of clerics.  There is no room for a secular political system in which all people are treated as equals.


Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"  Non-Muslims are intended to be subordinate to Muslims.


Bukhari (88:219) - "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."
 

Bukhari (89:251) - Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah, and whoever obeys the ruler I appoint, obeys me, and whoever disobeys him, disobeys me."  The ruler referred to here is the Caliph, who is appointed by Allah, not by popular election.  Democratic rule has no legitimacy against the will of the Caliph who, as we see by chain of reference, has the authority of Allah.


Question 3: Is torture sanctioned by Islam?


Summary Answer: Yes, but only with a reason.


Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

Muslim (17:4196) - A married man confesses that he has adultery (four times, as required).  Muhammad orders him planted in the ground and pelted with stones.  According to the passage, the first several stones caused such pain that he tried to escape and was dragged back.

Ibn Ishaq 734 - When Muhammad’s favorite wife Aisha was accused of adultery, he launched an investigation that included the brutal interrogation of a female slave:  "So the apostle called Burayra to ask her, and Ali got up and gave her a violent beating, saying “'Tell the Apostle the truth.'”

Ibn Ishaq 764 - After amassing a powerful army, Muhammad sent his forces to take the peaceful farming community of Khaybar by surprise.  In the aftermath, he was dissatisfied with the amount of plunder and felt that the town’s treasurer, Kinana, might be holding out on him. He had the man brought to him:

When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.”


(As a happy side note to the story – Kinana's untimely death left a beautiful young widow named Saffiya, whom Muhammad was then able to “marry”).




Now Duckling, I just cited the Religion's holy book dozens of times.
You cannot defute this as saying they are "extremist belief's"


So please, just come keep telling me about this peaceful, charitable religion.

[Deagonx]

One more notice, before anyone jumps in here. And yes I do feel the need to ''double post''



Do you know Islamic people who are friendly? Do you think that not as Islamic people are bad?


If they are true muslims, this is what they think of you.


Qur'an (8:55) - "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve"
Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq 992) - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."



Now, if they are being nice because they mean it. Then they are going to HELL, right along with you.

Qur'an
003.167
YUSUFALI: And the Hypocrites also. These were told: "Come, fight in the way of Allah, or (at least) drive (The foe from your city)." They said: "Had we known how to fight, we should certainly have followed you." They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but Allah hath full knowledge of all they conceal.

They are saying that they are closer to unbelief than faith, for not fighting the unbelievers.

 
Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"

[SmartyPants]

Quotes from the bible:

"When a man sells his daughter into slavery, she is not to go free as male slaves may."

-Exodus 21: 7

"When a man strikes his slave or slave girl with a stick and the slave dies on the spot, he must be punished. But he is not to be punished if the slave survives for one day or two, because the slave is his property"

-Exodus 21: 20-21

"He said to them, 'The Lord God of Israel has said: Arm yourselves each of you with his sword. Go through the camp from gate to gate and back again. Each of you kill brother, friend, neighbor'"

-Exodus 32: 27

If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity

-Deuteronomy 25:11-12

"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord"

-Deuteronomy 23:1

"Then Saul said, “Thus shall you say to David, ‘The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king’s enemies.’” Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife"

-Samuel 18:25

"No man with a defect is to come, whether a blind man, a lame man, a man stunted or overgrown, or with misshapen brows, or film over his eyes, or discharge from it, a man who has a scab, or eruption, or has had a testicle ruptured"

-Leviticus 21: 18-20

[Deagonx]

Oh dear, it seems you mis understood the purpose of this topic.


Read the title. If you want to argue Christianity, please make a thread and describe how vile and nasty my beliefs are. This is not 'Belief A' vs. 'Belief B'


I want you to argue that Islam is a peaceful religion. I never said that Christianity is more peaceful. Nor did I say it isn't.

[Barzul]

Firstly, where did you get this information Deagonx? I don't doubt the direct quotes, I'm simply wondering if you picked these up from a site decrying the Islamic faith (which is a point I believe im2smart4u tried to make by quoting the bible, that all religious texts have points that are no longer applicable in these times, such as the condoning of slavery) or if you have actually read any parts of the Koran. I always feel you can't have a truly believable position on an issue that you have only been told about, not studied yourself. I don't declare myself an expert, or even remotely close to that level, but I have learned a few things about the religion, even asking some of my Muslim friends about what my Asian Humanities teacher has said.

I have read sections of the Koran, though not for my own purposes as the sections were homework for my Asian Humanities class, and he pointed out a main point about people who know little about the religion. They always go on about the scripture of Allah. Allah is simply the Islamic word for God. It is not a completely different God that they found, it is the same God of the Christians, Catholics, Jews, etc. The main difference that Islam finds is they do not believe that Jesus is the son of God (they do however believe he is a prophet from God and many of his teachings, including the teachings of Moses, Noah, Solomon, etc. can be found in the Koran), and they believe that Muhammad is God's final prophet.

Christianity and Islam have the same roots, though Christianity is older and even heavily influenced the faith as the main religions in Saudi Arabia at the time Islam was founded were Christianity and Judiasm due to the Crusades. They are two sides of the same coin, following only different prophets and scriptures.

The Islam faith requires them to donate 2% of their entire income to the poor and needy, some of the most basic tenants of the religion are about giving of yourself to the needy and turning the other cheek. The holiday Ramadan not only states that they fast, to remind them of those who cannot eat because they are too poor, but that they abstain from most vices, including excessive anger and violence.

Translated literally the very name Islam means Surrender, as in surrender yourself to God, and is very closely tied with the word Shalom, which itself means peace. It really is a religion of attaining peace with the world, and yes there are many un-peaceful (in this day and age, which is a far cry from the world when it was written, similar to nearly every other religious text) scriptures, but nearly all religious texts have scriptures that can be taken out of context and the period it was written in to show that all religions care about is war, as im2smart4u pointed out with the quotes from the Bible.

[SmartyPants]

I don't doubt the direct quotes, I'm simply wondering if you picked these up from a site decrying the Islamic faith (which is a point I believe im2smart4u tried to make by quoting the bible, that all religious texts have points that are no longer applicable in these times, such as the condoning of slavery)

I am glad my point got across.  You can't pick and choose quotes that put something in a negative light and ignore the good points.

I also wanted a excuse to put the quote in that says 'you can't go to heaven if your balls are cut off'

[Deagonx]

Firstly, where did you get this information Deagonx? I don't doubt the direct quotes, I'm simply wondering if you picked these up from a site decrying the Islamic faith (which is a point I believe im2smart4u tried to make by quoting the bible, that all religious texts have points that are no longer applicable in these times, such as the condoning of slavery) or if you have actually read any parts of the Koran. I always feel you can't have a truly believable position on an issue that you have only been told about, not studied yourself. I don't declare myself an expert, or even remotely close to that level, but I have learned a few things about the religion, even asking some of my Muslim friends about what my Asian Humanities teacher has said.

I have read sections of the Koran, though not for my own purposes as the sections were homework for my Asian Humanities class, and he pointed out a main point about people who know little about the religion. They always go on about the scripture of Allah. Allah is simply the Islamic word for God. It is not a completely different God that they found, it is the same God of the Christians, Catholics, Jews, etc. The main difference that Islam finds is they do not believe that Jesus is the son of God (they do however believe he is a prophet from God and many of his teachings, including the teachings of Moses, Noah, Solomon, etc. can be found in the Koran), and they believe that Muhammad is God's final prophet.

Christianity and Islam have the same roots, though Christianity is older and even heavily influenced the faith as the main religions in Saudi Arabia at the time Islam was founded were Christianity and Judiasm. They are two sides of the same coin, following only different prophets and scriptures.

The Islam faith requires them to donate 2% of their entire income to the poor and needy, some of the most basic tenants of the religion are about giving of yourself to the needy and turning the other cheek. The holiday Ramadan not only states that they fast, to remind them of those who cannot eat because they are too poor, but that they abstain from most vices, including excessive anger and violence.

Translated literally the very name Islam means Surrender, as in surrender yourself to God, and is very closely tied with the word Shalom, which itself means peace. It really is a religion of attaining peace with the world, and yes there are many un-peaceful (in this day and age, which is a far cry from the world when it was written, similar to nearly every other religious text) scriptures, but nearly all religious texts have scriptures that can be taken out of context and the period it was written in to show that all religions care about is war, as im2smart4u pointed out with the quotes from the Bible.

The first paragraph I really do feel is entirely irrelevant. Regardless of where I got this 'information' which honestly was just an interpretation of quotes given, I still make real points.

im2smart4u pulled questionable excerpts without giving a back story.

I gave general rules and morales that the excerpts described. Not to mention I organized them to show points specifically.


Islam means submission. If you interpret it as 'submit yourself to god' then sure it sounds nice.
Though when you look at Islamic's unwillingness to compromise with those of other religions.

Qur'an (8:55) - "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve"

it seems more like submission to Allah's Will.


I gave 22 organized excerpts that all personified their morales and values. He gave 7 generally questionable quotes.


Now, Barzul. You broke rules 2, 3, and 4.

2:You said that Islamic donate 2% of their income to the poor and needy? Where did you find this out.

3: Read 4, you integrated the 2.

4: You disregarded my points as simple picking and choosing.

I could have put those great, friendly excerpts. Those sugarcoat the darker side of the rules.
Read it again, now justify those excerpts. As I stated to im2smart4u if he makes a thread for christianity I will gladly rebuttal them there.

[Barzul]

I'm sorry but I can't rebuttal all your points. Like I said, I'm not an expert in the Islamic faith and I would have to read the entire Koran and learn more about the religion in order to successfully rebuttal everything you have quoted. I could only make half-arguments, so I focused on the areas I knew more about in order to show you that the main point of your argument isn't as black and white as you have made it.

I simply can't give a complete rebuttal to your entire argument with the information I possess. And I only asked where you obtained the information because it is very black and white, I don't deny that atrocious things have been done in the name of any religion, but that doesn't mean the entire religion is at fault. How can you know that it is a dark thing if you haven't looked past what you've been told about it by like-minded people?

As for the 2% fact, it is in the Koran. As I said, I read some parts of it for homework and that was one of the areas. But if you wish to see it, it is under the Zakat, described (as well as the fact that Ramadan is to remind those of the less fortunate) here under the paper currency heading:

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/zakat.htm

I'd also like to ask that this be a polite discussion, you come across very condescending and angry in your posts, I am not saying that is your intention, but I have a feeling this will result in a series of insults if we are not polite in this discussion. I did not mean to disregard your points, I just have no frame of reference to rebuttal them all, only the ones I am knowledgeable about.

[CraigStern]

Deagonx, consider this. Various portions of the Bible (both Old and New Testament) explicitly condone slavery. Ephesians 6:5-9 is probably the most infamous of these, but there are plenty of them.

If that is the standard by which a religion is judged, then we can say that Christianity is about slavery every bit as much as Islam is about violence or the degradation of women.

But that's not really true, is it? Virtually no Christian living in the modern world supports slavery in spite of the Bible's clear approval of the practice. People inevitably pick and choose which portions of their holy books to believe in or act on. There are moderate, decent Muslims just as there are moderate, decent Christians; moderate, decent Jews; or moderate, decent members of any religion.

One of the central rules of this forum is that we do not engage in hate speech. This topic comes dangerously close. Tread carefully. If this topic strays at all, I am locking it.

[Deagonx]

"because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. "

I think the Bible indentifies Slavery as a fact of society, if you look at the time it revolved around. Then told masters to treat their slaves kindly. I don't see much of a problem with that.

Now, Islam however...

Alright, here are a few Qur'an quotes that I replaced one word in. Now look at them

“Muslims are the vilest of animals…”

“Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims”

“How perverse are Muslims!”

“Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips”

“Fight those Muslims who are near to you”

“Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified”


Sounds very much like a hate speech doesn't it? Now the word I changed was non-believers. As in, anyone of any other religion.



On the topic of Slavery?
Far from ignoring or condemning slavery, Islam condones the horrible institution like no other religion. 

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."   This verse allows the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.  See also Qur'an (70:29-30).

[MikeW781]

"because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. "

Im gonna point out right here that this quote is part of a paragraph describing how slaves should accept their position and wholeheartedly obey their masters. The full quote is the link Craig posted a few posts back. Its totally unfair to cherry-pick your quotes to show only the parts that support your argument like that.

Now, I'll throw in my two cents here. I've read parts of both the Koran and the Bible, but I do not claim to be an expert in either. However, I think my point is valid based off the information I've seen here, and the parts I have read. In my humble opinion, neither text is a perfect view of what the religion supports. They are obviously the major basis for the belief, but they were written a very long time ago, when the world was a different place. They therefore both contain references and sections that are outdated, and they should not be judged on this. Doing so is just as bad as judging whole groups based of one or two notably notorious members.

[Deagonx]

In the case of christianity I could explain the quotes. I will not do so in this thread because this is about Islam.


Can anyone explain these? A lot of them set a bottom line.


"Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are non-believers"


Pretty straightforward message.

[Zackirus]

Even though that it says that, do you think that all Muslims walk around thinking that anyone but Muslims are vile animals? I have plenty of Muslim friends that don't think of me as a "vile animal".

Their are different levels of Faith Deagonx. Whether it be the Hardcore Extremist to The Teenager being forced by his parents, not everyone interprets and follows upon what their holy book says the same way.

[MikeW781]

In the case of christianity I could explain the quotes. I will not do so in this thread because this is about Islam.


Can anyone explain these? A lot of them set a bottom line.


"Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are non-believers"


Pretty straightforward message.

You completely ignored my post. You have to realize that the text of a religious book does not perfectly reflect its actual application.

[Deagonx]

Well see, I understand that but... If they DONT consider you a vile animal, and they don't try to convert you. They are going to hell.

Infact I already cited that. So all your Muslim friends are being punishes for common goodness.