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Author Topic: Independence from the British Empire  (Read 18337 times)

ArtDrake

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Independence from the British Empire
« on: April 09, 2011, 01:22:56 PM »

Not to put too fine a point on it, im2smart4u, but Britain wasn't really being that horrid. America wanted some excuse to break away from Britain, and took the excessive taxes. The taxes would have passed, and everything would have been fine, not to mention the fact that America's rebellion incited several other territories to revolt. If you look at history with an unbiased eye, we're the bad guys.
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bugfartboy

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Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 03:36:36 PM »

Oh! We're the bad guys for wanting to be our own country? There was far more than taxes.
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SmartyPants

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Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 07:35:33 PM »

Duckling, don't assume everyone shares your ignorance. I am very aware of the British views of the time. The British didn't understand why the Americans were upset about taxes since the people in the British Isles had to pay greater taxes then the colonist. The British people's superiority complex is what caused the American Revolution.  Even though colonists saw themselves as englishmen, while the British saw the colonist as barbarians.  Since they didn't see colonists as englishmen, they believe the colonist didn't deserve the rights of Englishmen such as representation in parliament.  The superiortity complex compelled the British to take advantage of the colonist.  They forced the colonist to pay excessive taxes, forced the colonist to only trade with England, forced them to provide quarters to troops, and forced the colonist to do many other things that they had no say about. I don't see how fighting against injustice would make America the bad guys.  Then and now, Americans should decide America's future instead of foreigners looking out for themselves.

Zackirus

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Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2011, 12:08:51 PM »

Yet, Canada went through the same thing and turned out just fine...

You act as though the UN looks out for itself. Well that's impossible because they are all different countries, with different needs, it would be very hard to single out one country...
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SmartyPants

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Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 12:30:25 PM »

Yet, Canada went through the same thing and turned out just fine...
I think "just fine" is the key phrase.  The United States was able to flourish into a superpower on its own, while Canada remained "just fine" by being an unquestioning servant to the British.

You act as though the UN looks out for itself. Well that's impossible because they are all different countries, with different needs, it would be very hard to single out one country...
The UN is a bunch of countries that are looking out for themselves.  Many of the countries such as Canada agree that something must be done in the UN, but each individual country is unwilling to commit alot of resources to get it, so they always have the US do the heavy lifting.

ArtDrake

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Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 01:00:15 PM »

im2smart4u, the colonists weren't Englishmen.

Should our territories, like Puerto Rico, and Guam, have representation in Congress? Sure, they have a slightly better deal (i.e. they don't have to pay American taxes), but they have our military occupying their territory. That's the entire purpose of Guam.

The British didn't have a "superiortity" complex; they simply thought that by the generally large influences brought upon them by other foreign powers, they no longer were English, and thus were not informed on the best choices for the British Empire.

The Declaration of Independence is basically a bunch of whininess compiled into legalspeak. The Founding Fathers wouldn't have had to list so many reasons to separate if they were good reasons.
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Ertxiem

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2011, 02:01:00 PM »

I moved here the discussion that was on Thoughts on current administration (of the country(s))
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Dean_Lukas

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2011, 02:47:49 PM »

im2smart4u, the colonists weren't Englishmen.

I suppose not entirely, as there were other European settlers. But mostly.

The reasons the American Revolution is interesting is because it wasn't the natives (Native Americans) breaking away from a colonizer. It was the members of the colony breaking away from the actual empire. In that respect the way that the rest of the former British Empire gained independence is completely different (it WAS the native population pushing for it).
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Zackirus

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2011, 03:18:00 PM »

However, Canada might not be as powerful as the states. We are have a solid place in the global economy, and we aren't moving anytime soon. See, Superpowers come and go. But Helpers stay around for a while...
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SmartyPants

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2011, 10:32:45 AM »

im2smart4u, the colonists weren't Englishmen.

Should our territories, like Puerto Rico, and Guam, have representation in Congress? Sure, they have a slightly better deal (i.e. they don't have to pay American taxes), but they have our military occupying their territory. That's the entire purpose of Guam.
The colonists were citizens of england and they served the crown, so they were englishmen.  I don't see your point with Puerto Rico and Guam.  Everyone born in American territories are American citizens.  The rule with American territories is that "no taxation without representation".  Puerto Rico has had several chances to become a state, but they always vote to stay a territory, so they don't have to pay taxes.

The British didn't have a "superiortity" complex;
This just further shows your ignorance of the British views.  If you look into the personal writings of George Grenville and King George III, then you will see the destain for the Americans before and after the war.

The Declaration of Independence is basically a bunch of whininess compiled into legalspeak. The Founding Fathers wouldn't have had to list so many reasons to separate if they were good reasons.
So speaking out against injustice is considered "whininess"?  You probably think the protesters in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia were just the people being "whiny".  I don't see the logic in thinking that having multiple reasons to succeed would mean that none of the reasons are good.  Can you honestly tell me that all the points are not justifiable for independance?
Quote from: declaration of independence
Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such disolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
easons are good.  Can you break down how all the reasons are not justification for independence.

Zackirus

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 08:28:21 PM »

Still, the British would have let you seperate eventually, much like many of their territories did after World War Two.
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ArtDrake

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 08:56:55 PM »

Yes, im2smart4u. I don't consider speaking out against injustice whiny, but rather consider speaking out against not much to have an excuse to promote your own agenda (*cough* 43rd president towards terrorism *cough*) whiny and inconsiderate.

1st: Hmm. The King isn't following his laws. Er... he's the king. Point invalid.

2nd: Okay; so he ignores his Americans. That's understandable, considering that George was dealing with the aftermath of the Seven Years War, and balancing the delicate politics of dealing with the French revolution so he could take advantage of the situation to the best of his ability, and at the same time not look like a power-hungry maniac (hard to do when you've just established yourself as a huge military power).

3rd: I thought you said that Americans didn't get representation in the Legislature...

4th: Everyone uses sketchy tactics, George more so that most, that's all.

5th: Manly firmness, eh? More like a bit of treason. Sounds like a reason to dissolve a house of legislature to me.

I could go on, but there are a lot, and in my time zone, it's late.
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Deagonx

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2011, 08:50:56 AM »

Regardless of how 'understandable' his ignorance to the problems in the new world were, he still objectified those people.

He treated them like a way to get money, regardless of the effect on the actual people.


And if the colonists WEREN'T englishmen as you stated, then they did nothing wrong. King George claimed land that he really had no claim to. His people were not there, he had no military force, but yet he still taxed them?

Revolutions happen throughout history. We were not the bad guy for wanting to better our lives from foreign oppression.
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ArtDrake

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2011, 09:20:15 AM »

Colonies pretty much are just that: a way to make money, perhaps a secondary objective only to the spread of the empire. And your point, Deagonx, is that there were no Englishmen there. First off, there were, and second, they were still subjects of the King.

If the Queen is in London, and she has jurisdiction over Londoners, does that mean that Canterburians are not ruled by her? I believe not.
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Deagonx

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Re: Independence from the British Empire
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2011, 09:25:41 AM »

im2smart4u, the colonists weren't Englishmen.


Subjects of the king... hmm.

Keyword subjects, like I said he treated them like crap. He had no regard for their well being like most anarchic rulers.

This revolution sparked the idea of democracy. I don't mean to be biased but isn't democracy a good thing?
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