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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 17249 times)

Deagonx

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2011, 06:20:55 PM »

Out of curiosity, would you pull the plug on someone who is brain dead?
A person who is brain dead has no hope of recovery or any other life. An embryo does have hope for life. Even if brain activity hasn't started for an embryo, it will in short time. If you're brain dead, your brain isn't going to start back up.
What if someone is in a coma with a 0.1% chance of that person waking up and cost $10,000 a month to keep that person alive.  Would you pull the plug even though there is brain activity and hope of recovery?
Ehm... I find the two situations relatively incomparable. 10,000 a month could probably go to homeless shelters and save even more lives.
The situations are comparable, because they both involve possibility of life and a financial cost.  I know both Deagonx and Rob think that the possiblity of life for an unborn fetus is worth the financial cost to not allow abortions.  I am only asking about the coma question to see where one draws the line.  Apparently, Deagonx thinks that $10,000 isn't worth a 0.1% of life.
If there is a 90% chance that the baby is a stillborn and the resulting medical bills without an abortion will bankrupt the eighteen-year-old girl, will you be against her having an abortion?

I would not be against her having an abortion in that case.

But I see what you are doing, you are putting radical examples forward to see where I allow abortions. I assume next you are going to conclude I should be pro choice because of these VERY unlikely EXTREME circumstances?
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flack

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2011, 01:04:44 AM »

Interesting conversation. I stand on the neutral side of things. There are just too many different circumstances faced when one considers an abortion. Many were discussed on this forum. I would like to offer my viewpoint. Please don't be offended.

The MAIN reason people want abortions is because raising a child will cause problems in their life. Then the first to ask is does that give her the right or (is it right) to get an abortion? Pros and Cons would both argue based on certain circumstances that caused her to become pregnant and then discuss the overall benefit and harm that would occur if an abortion did take place. These reasons all reflect partly on the basic viewpoints of people of whether they THINK something is right or WRONG (their morals (not sure if its right word to use but you know what I mean)) and reflect based on some of the conditions there are in life. What I mean by conditions are for example laws that govern and certain things that a person needs to survive in this society (eg money) which are all established by us. If we look into these factors, they are all so complicated in the world we live in that it is very hard and impossible to be sure that 1 side is completely right.   

Moreover, after looking deeply into this and trying to find a solution. I wanted to understand why we even have to end up in the difficult position of even asking the question in the first place. This is the answer I came up with: Because we have an imperfect society. Why is society imperfect? I think we can all agree that it isn't perfect. Problems like wars(genocide), famine, poverty, diseases, selfishness and ignorance in people, you name them all occur constantly throughout the history since human origin. Yet knowing these things are bad ALL the time we still haven't resolved it after all the time that has passed? Why do people still kill, rape, slander, and hurt others constantly? Or hurt ourselves? WHY??? We cant
even answer this basic question.

If people fixed these problems then we can easily answer if abortion is right or wrong. Because really the main problem is not whether "Do I need an abortion or not"? but whether if people can stop hurting themselves and create a better (I wont say perfect) society. 
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Steel Ersatz Man

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2011, 10:36:34 AM »

Interesting conversation. I stand on the neutral side of things. There are just too many different circumstances faced when one considers an abortion. Many were discussed on this forum. I would like to offer my viewpoint. Please don't be offended.

The MAIN reason people want abortions is because raising a child will cause problems in their life. Then the first to ask is does that give her the right or (is it right) to get an abortion? Pros and Cons would both argue based on certain circumstances that caused her to become pregnant and then discuss the overall benefit and harm that would occur if an abortion did take place. These reasons all reflect partly on the basic viewpoints of people of whether they THINK something is right or WRONG (their morals (not sure if its right word to use but you know what I mean)) and reflect based on some of the conditions there are in life. What I mean by conditions are for example laws that govern and certain things that a person needs to survive in this society (eg money) which are all established by us. If we look into these factors, they are all so complicated in the world we live in that it is very hard and impossible to be sure that 1 side is completely right.   

Moreover, after looking deeply into this and trying to find a solution. I wanted to understand why we even have to end up in the difficult position of even asking the question in the first place. This is the answer I came up with: Because we have an imperfect society. Why is society imperfect? I think we can all agree that it isn't perfect. Problems like wars(genocide), famine, poverty, diseases, selfishness and ignorance in people, you name them all occur constantly throughout the history since human origin. Yet knowing these things are bad ALL the time we still haven't resolved it after all the time that has passed? Why do people still kill, rape, slander, and hurt others constantly? Or hurt ourselves? WHY??? We cant
even answer this basic question.

If people fixed these problems then we can easily answer if abortion is right or wrong. Because really the main problem is not whether "Do I need an abortion or not"? but whether if people can stop hurting themselves and create a better (I wont say perfect) society. 

Nice Viewpoint!
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ArtDrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2011, 11:01:10 AM »

Deagonx, what do you think about contraception?
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Deagonx

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2011, 12:40:33 PM »

Deagonx, what do you think about contraception?

I think anyone who isn't married should use contraceptives. Because while I disapprove of before-marriage sexual relations. I cannot stop it completely. But I assume a 16 year old girl wouldn't want a baby and should use contraceptives. If she gets pregnant, it's her fault and the child shouldn't have to pay for that.

Married couples shouldn't use contraceptives unless they already have a child and aren't ready for another.
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Rob

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2011, 11:07:08 PM »

My time is somewhat limited, so I'll just address on issue.
Rob, that's not true. Nearly all abortions happen as a result of one of the following:
Inability to care for a child.
To prevent birth of a child after childbearing age, where childbirth might kill the mother.
To prevent birth of a child with severe congenital defects.
To prevent the birth of a child born of violence.
A condition the mother has that makes childbirth high-risk.
If you've looked at a study, the three main reasons that women say they have abortions are:
Negative impact on their lives (life as in plans for the future)
Financial Instability
Relationship problems/unwillingness to be a single mother
In case you're wondering where I got these from, I'm inserting a hyperlink. The actual study is hyperlinked on the page.
http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons.htm
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ArtDrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2011, 04:04:09 PM »

I'd consider those as all falling under the first heading...
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SmartyPants

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2011, 01:19:11 PM »

Out of curiosity, would you pull the plug on someone who is brain dead?
A person who is brain dead has no hope of recovery or any other life. An embryo does have hope for life. Even if brain activity hasn't started for an embryo, it will in short time. If you're brain dead, your brain isn't going to start back up.
What if someone is in a coma with a 0.1% chance of that person waking up and cost $10,000 a month to keep that person alive.  Would you pull the plug even though there is brain activity and hope of recovery?
Ehm... I find the two situations relatively incomparable. 10,000 a month could probably go to homeless shelters and save even more lives.
The situations are comparable, because they both involve possibility of life and a financial cost.  I know both Deagonx and Rob think that the possiblity of life for an unborn fetus is worth the financial cost to not allow abortions.  I am only asking about the coma question to see where one draws the line.  Apparently, Deagonx thinks that $10,000 isn't worth a 0.1% of life.
If there is a 90% chance that the baby is a stillborn and the resulting medical bills without an abortion will bankrupt the eighteen-year-old girl, will you be against her having an abortion?
I would not be against her having an abortion in that case.
Since you think there are some exceptions where abortions are acceptable, how do you think it should be decided who is/isn't allowed to have an abortion?

Deagonx

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 01:50:42 PM »

Smartypants, I think there are some acceptable cases of abortion. But they are too little for me to be "pro-choice."

If say, the child was definitely going to be a stillborn, hell, abort it. It's dead anyways. But majority of abortions are for convenience and I cannot allow it.
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SmartyPants

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2011, 02:03:35 PM »

But how does one decide what are the acceptable cases?
Are you the one that pregnant women have to petition to have an abortion?

Deagonx

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2011, 02:48:06 PM »

But how does one decide what are the acceptable cases?
Are you the one that pregnant women have to petition to have an abortion?

I'm saying since the 'acceptable' cases are very rare, we shouldn't try and decide what is right and wrong, and ban it.
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SmartyPants

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2011, 03:15:05 PM »

You think everyone shouldn't have access to abortions, because too many people want it for reasons you don't like.

*Sorry Kim, you have to go through a pregnancy that will probably kill you, because Deagonx says no exceptions.
*Sorry Jill, you can't have an abortion after your father raped you.  Because Deagonx doesn't allow abortions for anyone, you have to raise an inbreed baby even though you are a broke sixteen-year-old.
*Sorry Mary, even though you have AIDs and a pregnancy will inhibit your ability fight the disease, you still have to give brith to an HIV infected baby, because Deagonx thinks you need to be punished for having a condom break during sex.

I was going to do more of these, but I find it too depressing.

Rob

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2011, 04:46:19 PM »

I'd consider those as all falling under the first heading...
You have suceeded in completely missing my point. Nearly all abortions happen because of the first reason you stated. Only 12% of abortions in the U.S were the result of the mother's physical problems. 13% of abortions were the result of possible problems with the fetus's health. 1% of abortions were becase of rape, and less than half a percent of abortions were because of incests. Most of the reasons for abortion are because the mother wants to do whatever they want to do, and the baby won't let them. The rest of the reasons you listed as being a primary reason for abortions were not actually primary reasons.
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ArtDrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2011, 05:50:36 PM »

So... you think that because less than three-quarters of abortions happen for a reason that you don't like, women shouldn't have abortions?

You also think that if contraception fails when married couples are participating in safe intercourse, the woman should go through with the pregnancy that she does not even want? What value does a fetus in the womb have compared to the happiness of the woman carrying it? It's not an independent living organism. It does not have ideas and thoughts. It exists in a state incapable of having memories or making decisions. Potential is a lie; if the fetus is going to be aborted, it does not have a future, it does not have a mind, and it certainly does not have any more right to exist than the baby the woman would be having if she had her baby at the time she wanted would!

An egg has the same amount of potential as does a fetus; the fetus is merely closer. Is contraception, which prevents realization of the potential, a crime? NO. Is abstinence, which prevents the fertilization of the egg and the combination of genetics, a crime? NO. Childbearing is an act of choice, and is never a responsibility. Abortion is acceptable at any time, since the mother does not want to bear a child. Is that clear?
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SmartyPants

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2011, 07:33:23 PM »

Duckling comments tend to be more Pro-Abortion then Pro-choice.  It is just seems odd that he is encourages it use, while most people (at best) begrudgingly find abortion necessary.
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