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With the Shadowling Republic's policies of equality, would the Assassin's Cult allow Spriggats into their organiztion?

Good question. I believe it was brought up some time ago back on the old forums, and my answer is still the same: as in any militaristic organisation, it will be rather conservative so changes will take place much more slowly in it. So although the Spriggats might be trated as equals in most of the Shadowling society by the time of TSoG, it might be that Spriggats would just start to become accepted into Psy Assassin ranks. They could also form alternative, Spriggat only, organization. Or it might be the case that during TSoG it would be the time of "for the first time ever..." a Spriggat included, a Spriggat successful, etc.

Quote from: KZ on February 25, 2010, 10:44:22 AM
Good question. I believe it was brought up some time ago back on the old forums, and my answer is still the same: as in any militaristic organisation, it will be rather conservative so changes will take place much more slowly in it. So although the Spriggats might be trated as equals in most of the Shadowling society by the time of TSoG, it might be that Spriggats would just start to become accepted into Psy Assassin ranks.

Despite a military's resistance to change, the political aspect of government can force them to accept new policy.

Examples:
*President Truman gave an Executive Order to integrate the armed forces
*Congress is trying to end "Don't ask, don't tell"

That can happen, but the example are sparse and far between. Acceleration of change usually happens during great military conflicts: such as the women's death battalion in the Soviet Army, then the women's military formations in British and US armies during WWII, as well as the "all-black" units that were formed and which had quite impressive battle statistics.
Yet, after the Shadow Wars, it looks like no major conflict took place in the meantime, hence the process of integration of Spriggats has not been catalysed by necessity.

Also, trained assassins is a special issue- I doubt any government would want to publicly highlight their existence much, and even much less so any development of said branch. Though to be fair, given how the Shadowling society was quite militaristic, the public opinion may be indifferent or even favourable on the issue. (Think of how in 20th century KGB, CIA and MI6 were mentioned in politics.)

Quote from: KZ on February 28, 2010, 09:49:17 AM
That can happen, but the example are sparse and far between. Acceleration of change usually happens during great military conflicts: such as the women's death battalion in the Soviet Army, then the women's military formations in British and US armies during WWII, as well as the "all-black" units that were formed and which had quite impressive battle statistics.
Yet, after the Shadow Wars, it looks like no major conflict took place in the meantime, hence the process of integration of Spriggats has not been catalysed by necessity.

It would be consider necessary by those Spriggats who demand equality. Both of my examples were not durring "great military conflicts".  Women soldiers were allowed into the American armed forces during a time of peace.

Quote from: KZ on February 28, 2010, 09:49:17 AM
Also, trained assassins is a special issue- I doubt any government would want to publicly highlight their existence much, and even much less so any development of said branch. Though to be fair, given how the Shadowling society was quite militaristic, the public opinion may be indifferent or even favourable on the issue. (Think of how in 20th century KGB, CIA and MI6 were mentioned in politics.)

The Assassin's Cult is more like Army Rangers, Navy SEALs, Army Green Berets, and Army Delta Force.  Being a Division of the Military, it would follow all the same rules as the rest of the military.

In most cases, however, such changes are made during significant military confrontations, or right before/after the events, when, say, army modernisation or evolution is required in order to have an edge over the enemy.


I see the assassin's cult as covered ops and specializing mostly in political assassinations, or performing private functions, which is more akin to what the spy services do on occaison- like the Mossad.

Even if the Assassin's Cult wouldn't let spriggats in, the sprigatts could always for their own cult, though I do admit it would be weird to have two assassin's cults in one city-state.

Two Assassin Cults that do the same thing, but are racially divided sounds like a very dumb, inefficient idea.

Races and the hatred between them have often been the cause for such inefficiency in our own history.

Zhampir is right, there are examples aplenty when there were two organisations doing exactly the same thing. For instance, in 19th century Russia there were effectively two police agencies with many of the functions crossing over. Same goes for KGB and GRU, with the divide coming in the form of the first being civilan, and the second being military. Then take Italy, for instance- there is the Polizia, and then there is the Gendarmeria, which practically does the same thing. The argument for having two organisations is that they'll try to outcompete each other, but this strategy oftern backfires when they simply start suspecting each other and preventing the other organisation from carrying out their plans.

Nevertheless, I think that there is a possibility for Spriggats getting accepted into the Cult as time passes by, I am just unsure wherether a few decades is enough after millenia of division (and taking into consideration that these beings live much longer- a few hundred years, by the looks of it, so generation changes and historical events fall into oblivion much more slowly).

Quote from: KZ on March 04, 2010, 12:45:02 PM
Nevertheless, I think that there is a possibility for Spriggats getting accepted into the Cult as time passes by, I am just unsure wherether a few decades is enough after millenia of division (and taking into consideration that these beings live much longer- a few hundred years, by the looks of it, so generation changes and historical events fall into oblivion much more slowly).

In about four decades, America went from the Jim Crow Laws to electing an African American president.
After several decades, I don't see much of a strech in admitting Spriggats into a military orgainzation.
It is unlikely that Shadowlings outnumber Spriggats enough for Spriggats to be considered a minority.  Since Spriggats are not a minority, their voting power in a republic can change things very easily.  One easy change would be desegregation.

The process took more than for decades, five at least, if we start with the mid-60ies, otherwise the Jim Crow laws were changed from open to covered starting from the early 20th century.
We don't know how many Spriggats there are in comparison to Shadowlings, but from playing TRPG2, I got an impression that there were fewer Spriggats than Shadowlings (don't forget that Nelis killed off most of the female Spriggats to "keep the population in check"). Nevertheless, I strongly suspect that we soon will find out the answer to this question.
In the meantime, I see no reason for the then-rebels to set up their own organization, whilst the braver Spriggats attempt to get accepted into the Assassin's Cult.

I feel that the assasins cult would admit the spriggats if only for their diffrences- after all, most shadowlings start off with shadow affinity, so fire and cyro(and possibly light) would be seen as incredibly useful.

the game rarely mentions affinity straight out like "lets have light-based fighters too"
also, spriggats don't make good assassins
they aren't too fast, and were mainly deployed as tank units in TRGP2
they are more comparable to shadowling guardians than shadowling assassins

Rarely? how so? things colored red breath fire, white- freeze, and black- shadow. The game is rather obvious on this point.

Quote from: mikew781 on April 02, 2010, 09:06:53 PMthey aren't too fast, and were mainly deployed as tank units in TRGP2

In TPA2, the Spriggat classes move faster then all non-assassin humans and moves as fast as non-assassin shadowlings.  This means that if a Spriggat was trained in speed by the Assassins Cult, then it could move as fast as any shadowling Psy Assassin.

Quote from: Zhampir on April 02, 2010, 09:49:24 PM
Rarely? how so? things colored red breath fire, white- freeze, and black- shadow. The game is rather obvious on this point.

Thats not what I meant. I'm pretty good at my colors. However, I meant that they never consider affinity/weakness out loud, or seem to at all. Like "Wow Anya. I'm so glad you're on my side. Your light resistance will help." or "Come with us Grotius. We need a cold-based fighter"

Quote from: im2smart4u on April 02, 2010, 10:46:18 PM

Quote from: mikew781 on April 02, 2010, 09:06:53 PMthey aren't too fast, and were mainly deployed as tank units in TRGP2

In TPA2, the Spriggat classes move faster then all non-assassin humans and moves as fast as non-assassin shadowlings.  This means that if a Spriggat was trained in speed by the Assassins Cult, then it could move as fast as any shadowling Psy Assassin.

In TPA2, the Spriggat classes move faster then all non-assassin humans and moves as fast as non-assassin shadowlings.  This means that if a Spriggat was trained in speed by the Assassins Cult, then it could move as fast as any shadowling Psy Assassin.
Hmmmm, I never played TPA2 much, but IMHO I think that TRGP2 would be more accurate, as, despite being less recent, it had to have a plot that made sense. Whereas Telepath Arena 2 had no plot, but was a game solely based around battles.
btw, how do I have multiple quotes in one post?

but i dont quite mean resitances. I mean, say that there is this really powerful psy who would kill you in one hit, even after being shot with multiple shadow blasts. answer- freeze him a.k.a. cyro, thus they would need a frost spriggat. Say they want to set fire to a building with assasins waiting to take out the survivors. you would need a red spriggat.

Quote from: mikew781 on April 02, 2010, 09:06:53 PM

Quote from: im2smart4u on April 02, 2010, 10:46:18 PM

Quote from: mikew781 on April 02, 2010, 09:06:53 PMthey aren't too fast, and were mainly deployed as tank units in TRGP2

In TPA2, the Spriggat classes move faster then all non-assassin humans and moves as fast as non-assassin shadowlings.  This means that if a Spriggat was trained in speed by the Assassins Cult, then it could move as fast as any shadowling Psy Assassin.

Hmmmm, I never played TPA2 much, but IMHO I think that TRGP2 would be more accurate, as, despite being less recent, it had to have a plot that made sense. Whereas Telepath Arena 2 had no plot, but was a game solely based around battles.

Spriggats are naturally faster than humans.

TPA1 has no plot or story, while TPA2 has some story and plot.  The story is about how the Hero needs money for unknown reasons and he will get that money by winning the Grand Tournament.  Between Leagues, the Hero chats with his/her subordinates which leads the player to learn about the Hero's reason for fighting.  The story comes to a climax with the battle against Zem the Reaper.

Quote from: mikew781 on April 03, 2010, 07:53:47 AM
Hmmmm, I never played TPA2 much, but IMHO I think that TRGP2 would be more accurate, as, despite being less recent, it had to have a plot that made sense. Whereas Telepath Arena 2 had no plot, but was a game solely based around battles.
btw, how do I have multiple quotes in one post?

TRPG2 you get Grotius, who is faster than all humans on your team. Unless you have the green orb.

Well, Grotius has a speed of 7, and all assassins have a speed of nine
but i guess i was wrong, I had only ever played TPA1, not 2, and apologize for any inacurate statements i may have made earlier

Quote from: mikew781 on April 03, 2010, 12:02:55 PM
Well, Grotius has a speed of 7, and all assassins have a speed of nine
but i guess i was wrong, I had only ever played TPA1, not 2, and apologize for any inacurate statements i may have made earlier

Grotius also doesn't have assassin training, so it is reasonable that he doen't move as fast as Shadowling Psy Assassins.  With training from the Assassins Cult, Grotius could move as fast as Shadowboxer or Malis.

normal shadowlings that aren't assassins more at a speed of 9 (malis)

Quote from: Zhampir on April 04, 2010, 03:46:30 AM
normal shadowlings that aren't assassins more at a speed of 9 (malis)

Malis is a Psy Assassin class with a speed of 7.  The non-assassin shadowling classes have a speed of 6 which is the same speed of non-assassin spriggats.