The Sinister Design Forums

Post your own orb (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Orbs) ideas.

Beige Orb- This orb enhances Duvalier's reflexes where he is quickly able to counter-attack with Mind Blast.

Red Orb- Gives Duvalier Vendetta, so he can return his pain and then some to his enemies.

Tan Orb- To improve his skills with a knife, tan orbs boost Duvalier's strength.

Here's the thing, Duvalier doesn't use strength, in fact, for Duvalier, strength isn't even a stat.

The Beige and Red orb are good ideas.

Quote from: Duskling on August 20, 2010, 12:59:14 AM
Here's the thing, Duvalier doesn't use strength, in fact, for Duvalier, strength isn't even a stat.

The twitter (https://twitter.com/sinisterdesign) says that Duvalier will learn Knife (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Knife) during a side quest (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/TSoG_Side_Quests#Join_the_Black_Rose).  This means that Duvalier will have very low strength when he gains knife, so the Tan Orb will make up for it.

I'll go for the Tan Orb too.

Grey Orb: Gives Duvalier mental-resistance

Quote from: Zackirus on August 20, 2010, 02:30:11 PM
Black Orb: Gives Duvalier mental-resistance

Black orb is already shadow resistance.

I thought the shadow-resistance was given by the shadow orb. No matter. It can be called the grey orb then.

Quote from: Zackirus on August 20, 2010, 04:47:23 PM
I thought the shadow-resistance was given by the shadow orb. No matter. It can be called the grey orb then.

Orbs (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Orbs) are named after colors.

Does everyone like the grey orb idea though...

I actually like every idea on this thread so far. The Beige orb will let Duvalier have a counter-attack, which is nice because so far Griffin is the only character to get a counter. The Red Orb was already discussed with the inclusion of Vendetta in "Formulated Teammate Attack Ideas", and the Tan Orb will be very useful- however, it should not be obtainable untill after Duvalier learns Knife. Also, the Beige orb is a good idea. The only issue is that Beige and Tan might be tricky to distinguish, but thats just IMO.

I would also like to see the Crystal Orb (Physical res.) included

What about orbs that give another area attack for your affinity? Or is that a bad idea? The red orb? Since Duvalier can already learn pyro hail if you want. Different area attack? Or maybe a bigger mind blast to go with it?

An orb that lets you learn Fire Gate? Maybe; it might be a bit OP, though.

here's my idea for the orb that modifies your element.

silver orb: makes the elemental blast attack range 3 and piercing.
golden orb: adds 5 damage and increases the size of your elemental area attack
for pyro hail it would be a 5 by 5 plus sign, cyro cross would get +1 range and dark vortex and light blast would be a 5x5 blast.
While I'm here i'll just post possible methods of getting the orbs.
for the silver orb: 1v1 against a silver colored shadow beast that has your stats +5 (doesn't include orbs)
for the golden orb: team vs team of golden colored shadow beasts who all have your teams' stats +5

Quote from: rainen on August 27, 2010, 12:37:28 PMsilver orb: makes the elemental blast attack range 3 and piercing.

I don't think elemental blasts can be piercing.  Plus, it might be overly complex for orbs to mess with established attacks.  It seems easier for the orbs to just create new attacks.

Quote from: rainen on August 27, 2010, 12:37:28 PMgolden orb: adds 5 damage and increases the size of your elemental area attack
for pyro hail it would be a 5 by 5 plus sign, cyro cross would get +1 range and dark vortex and light blast would be a 5x5 blast.

Based on TPA2's orbs (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Orb#Telepath_Psy_Arena_2), we can assume the Golden Orb will regenrates up to 20 hp per turn.

Quote from: Steelfist on August 27, 2010, 07:43:49 AMAn orb that lets you learn Fire Gate? Maybe; it might be a bit OP, though.

I had a similar idea.  The Crimson Orb (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Orb#Telepath_RPG_2) gives the TRPG2 Pyro Hail, so it would be logical for the Crimson Orb to give the Heat affinity Duvalier Fire Gate (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Gate).  I didn't suggest it earlier, because I wanted to avoid a debate about what attacks the Crimson Orb gives the other three elemental affinities.

Quote from: Zackirus on August 20, 2010, 02:30:11 PMGrey Orb: Gives Duvalier mental-resistance

Based on Fernatus (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Fernatus), we know that mental resistance is possible.  I like it, but the grey orb may appear as the same color as the Crystal Orb.

here's an idea for the crimson orb bit.  You have a crimson orb,an azul orb (or any other icy color) then I guess a clear orb (for light since light is all the visible colors) and a carbon orb for shadow (carbon is almost black right?)

The crystal orb is for physical resistance. Why not just do one orb that gives you an uber area attack for your affinity?

Quote from: rainen on August 27, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
here's my idea for the orb that modifies your element.

silver orb: makes the elemental blast attack range 3 and piercing.
golden orb: adds 5 damage and increases the size of your elemental area attack
for pyro hail it would be a 5 by 5 plus sign, cyro cross would get +1 range and dark vortex and light blast would be a 5x5 blast.
While I'm here i'll just post possible methods of getting the orbs.
for the silver orb: 1v1 against a silver colored shadow beast that has your stats +5 (doesn't include orbs)
for the golden orb: team vs team of golden colored shadow beasts who all have your teams' stats +5

The silver orb seems to be close to what a Spriggat's breath 2 attack does. I think it would be better to have unique attacks to each character.

The golden orb seems too powerful. The elemental area attacks already covers a large area. Increasing it would mean that more than 25% of the battlefield is covered, since the regular map size is 11x8, or 88 squares. And the PsP that such an attack would cost would be huge!

What about an orb giving mini elemental area attacks. With lower range, we could benefit from a lower PsP cost.
Mini light bomb and mini dark vortex would be + shaped with the same centre, and mini cryo cross would be a 3x3 square centred on Duvalier, but I don't know what shape to choose for mini pyro cross, perhaps - shaped, like Dorgon's burst shoot (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Burst_Shot) attack. Another option would be an orb that would give elemental area attacks with different shapes, or diagonal elemental blasts.

[spoiler=Alternative elemental area attacks]
Alternative pyro hail:
OODOO
OXOXO
OOXOO
OXOXO

Alternative cryo cross:
OOXOO
OXDXO
XXXXX
OXXXO
OOXOO

Alternative dark vortex:
OODOO
OXXXO
XXXXX
OOXOO
OOOOO

Alternative light bomb:
OODOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OXXXO
XXXXX
OOXOO
[/spoiler]

Quote from: bugfartboy on August 29, 2010, 10:25:14 PM
Why not just do one orb that gives you an uber area attack for your affinity?

I agree with bugfartboy.  I perfer to just have the crimson orb vs rainen's alternative of a new orb for every element.

Quote from: Ertxiem on August 30, 2010, 05:47:42 AM
What about an orb giving mini elemental area attacks. With lower range, we could benefit from a lower PsP cost.
Mini light bomb and mini dark vortex would be + shaped with the same centre, and mini cryo cross would be a 3x3 square centred on Duvalier, but I don't know what shape to choose for mini pyro cross, perhaps - shaped, like Dorgon's burst shoot (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Burst_Shot) attack. Another option would be an orb that would give elemental area attacks with different shapes, or diagonal elemental blasts.

Your idea doesn't make sence.  If the orbs boost a psy's power, then why would he only be able to make a large area attack without the orb, yet only able to make a small area attack with the orb.

I think the crimson orb doesn't need to increase the number of spaces hit, but needs an altertative area attack that does more damage per space, then the none orb area attack. (Plus, it would cost more PsP.)

Maybe something like holy blast? Except it spreads equal damage. But low damage.

Quote from: bugfartboy on August 30, 2010, 01:49:21 PM
Maybe something like holy blast? Except it spreads equal damage. But low damage.

I don't like Holy Blast as a non-boss attack.  It lacks strategy.

Alright. What about like Fire Gate. Small damage to the surrounding 8 squares?

Quote from: im2smart4u on August 30, 2010, 01:30:51 PM
[...]
Your idea doesn't make sence.  If the orbs boost a psy's power, then why would he only be able to make a large area attack without the orb, yet only able to make a small area attack with the orb.
[...]

The damage of the mini elemental area attack could be significantly higher. That, together with lower PsP cost, would give and advantage over the normal elemental area attack.

Any thoughts on the diagonal elemental blasts?

In the wiki, Fire Gate (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Gate) gives equal damage to all opponents.

Quote from: im2smart4u on August 28, 2010, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: Steelfist on August 27, 2010, 07:43:49 AMAn orb that lets you learn Fire Gate? Maybe; it might be a bit OP, though.

I had a similar idea.  The Crimson Orb (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Orb#Telepath_RPG_2) gives the TRPG2 Pyro Hail, so it would be logical for the Crimson Orb to give the Heat affinity Duvalier Fire Gate (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Gate).  I didn't suggest it earlier, because I wanted to avoid a debate about what attacks the Crimson Orb gives the other three elemental affinities.

Does anyone have any other orb suggestions?

Brown Orb- the orb makes Duvalier more attentive, therefore he gains more experience every time he attacks.  This will help players level up attacks.

Thats a good one. Maybe an increase from .03 exp to .05?

I like the Brown Orb.

I was thinking of a brown orb but im2smart4u beat me to it. I didn't think of the extra experience.

That's a good idea.

I like the Brown orb. With the Somnus wishlist, do you think we should add a formulated orb section where the best orb ideas would go?

Yup. Let's leave that to KZ.

Quote from: Zackirus on September 01, 2010, 10:14:15 AM
I like the Brown orb. With the Somnus wishlist, do you think we should add a formulated orb section where the best orb ideas would go?

I don't see why it would go on the somnus wishlist.  If this topic become too big, then maybe we should think about formulating an orb section, but I don't think it is very big right now.

Not go on the Somnus Wishlist, but get its own forumulated section

Also, Reguarding the Grey Orb's colour, the Crystal Orb is white with a tint of blue in it, while the grey orb is just gray, I think where would be a difference in colour.

Quote from: Zackirus on September 01, 2010, 10:28:11 AMAlso, Reguarding the Grey Orb's color, the Crystal Orb is white with a tint of blue in it, while the grey orb is just gray, I think where would be a difference in color.

As long as they look diffrent, then I am okay with it.

what i wouldn't mind seeing is an orb that effects the entire team in a minor way.  Or perhaps all of the other team members can equip a single orb.  The idea comes not to make the game easier but because it's a bit more realistic that everybody would be able to use the orbs.

Quote from: rainen on September 01, 2010, 12:46:40 PM
what i wouldn't mind seeing is an orb that effects the entire team in a minor way.  Or perhaps all of the other team members can equip a single orb.  The idea comes not to make the game easier but because it's a bit more realistic that everybody would be able to use the orbs.

It has been discussed before (http://sinisterdesign.freepowerboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=24440#p24440=) that the teammates are not talented enough to use the orbs.

The counter idea with Mind Blast has been discussed before, and I believe Craig mentioned that he might implement it (Beige Orb).
The Red Orb has been around as well, and I'm all up for seeing Vendetta in, though only the other day I saw somewhere Craig say he isn't planning to use the attack,sadly.
I don't know about the optional Tan Orb- it's specific for a side-quest and will be otherwise useless- I'd rather see Orbs used to enhance mainstream properties which the player will find useful all the time. For instance, I, for one, would rather gain speed than knife, and thefore would not want to see an orb "wasted".
I definitely like the Brown Orb- and it should be better found earlier in the game (but relatively hard to find) so that the players don't waste too much time grinding to open up the more impressive attacks like Vengeance.
Fire Gate was discussed for the Crimson Orb before, but as was rightly pointed out, since Duvalier now can be of any element this is problematic. Of course, one can simply give this as an extra attack, but this will mean that by choosing other affinities, the players will get two elements to toy around with. The idea of an orb giving extra attacks was discussed before- but again, it is rather cumbersome and does mean that 3 orbs will be ineffective during each play-through. (Though, having Shockwave for Light and Dark Breath would've been nice, though the latter would cause problems to implement by affecting enemy AI).

Overall, as there is now a formulated thread, I suggest adding the "faster experience gain", "mind blast counter", "Vendetta" orbs to the list, as they seem to be the ones all agree on. What do you think, folks?

I agree with all the orbs I suggested (except the Crimson Orb) being formulated (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=655.0).  I would also like to see Zackirus's mental-resistance orb.

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 02:33:50 PMI don't know about the optional Tan Orb- it's specific for a side-quest and will be otherwise useless- I'd rather see Orbs used to enhance mainstream properties which the player will find useful all the time. For instance, I, for one, would rather gain speed than knife, and thefore would not want to see an orb "wasted".

Everyone has their own preferences.  I would think Arman's speed boost might be "wasted" after getting a green orb, so I would rather have the Tan Orb and knife.

Exactly the point- I'd rather see the orbs where all the players, no matter what their preferences are, can still use them, whilst the Tan Orb would only be useful to a player who has preference for the knife attack.

Ok, for the suggestions on formulated, let's hear back from another 4-5 people, and if everyone agrees, off they'll go into formulated.

(Just to be clear, im2msart4u,you agree with  the 3 orbs you mentioned in your first post, right?)

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 06:40:29 PM
(Just to be clear, im2msart4u,you agree with  the 3 orbs you mentioned in your first post, right?)

I agree with Beige, Red, Tan, Brown, and Grey.

Quote

Quote from: Cypher on August 20, 2010, 02:08:00 AMThe Beige and Red orb are good ideas.

Quote from: Cypher on August 20, 2010, 10:37:12 AMI'll go for the Tan Orb too.

Quote from: MikeW781 on August 21, 2010, 10:28:25 AMI actually like every idea on this thread so far. The Beige orb will let Duvalier have a counter-attack, which is nice because so far Griffin is the only character to get a counter. The Red Orb was already discussed with the inclusion of Vendetta in "Formulated Teammate Attack Ideas", and the Tan Orb will be very useful

Quote from: MikeW781 on August 31, 2010, 08:20:34 PMThats a good one. Maybe an increase from .03 exp to .05?

Quote from: Ertxiem on August 31, 2010, 08:53:50 PMI like the Brown Orb.

Quote from: Cypher on September 01, 2010, 02:20:03 AMThat's a good idea.

Quote from: Zackirus on September 01, 2010, 10:14:15 AMI like the Brown orb. With the Somnus wishlist, do you think we should add a formulated orb section where the best orb ideas would go?

Quote from: Zackirus on August 20, 2010, 02:30:11 PMGrey Orb: Gives Duvalier mental-resistance

Is this enough for formulation?

Hearing back from another 2 or 3 poeple would be better, but that's partly besides the point- some people only mention that they approve of one or two orbs, and not all which are proposed for becoming formulated. Thus, let's allow a couple of more people to have their say, and also hear back from those who backed one idea or another, but not all.

Just to remind folks: which ones would you like to see formulated-

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"

Methinks we can let Craig choose his favourite colours for the orbs ;)

Quote from: Zackirus on August 20, 2010, 02:30:11 PM
Grey Orb: Gives Duvalier mental-resistance

Don't forget Zackirus's mental-resistance

I've got an issue with that one, actually: what attacks fall under that category? I remember there was a time in the wiki where we had to sort the attacks, and there were a couple which we weren't clear about at all, like the Tig attack was neither this nor that in TPA2. Things like that. Otherwise I don't mind this useful orb, since it could make fights like against Iblis this much smoother.
Any thoughts on this?

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:01:12 PM
I've got an issue with that one, actually: what attacks fall under that category?

*Mind Blast 
*Feedback 
*Vengeance 
*Drain 

Well, these are we managed to guess through, but there were a couple of others that are not clear from TRPA2 gameplay, and I am not sure if Craig wants to go all the way through classifying them (say, Zem the Reaper had a couple of attacks, which are hard to classify, the Tig attacks are also not classified - and that is, admittedly, more significant than classifying Zem the Reaper attacks).
But it's fair game- let's add "mental-resistance" to the list as well, although it isn't an element per se, but rather used for the "leftover" attacks.

Only a few bosses in TRPG2 even had mind blast, and most of them just used their elemental attack anyways. The Grey orb would only be useful if enough enemies would even attack you with mental attacks

So,from the list including the following, what would you support? (I take it as a "nay" for "mental resistance" orb?)

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"
-"mental resistance"

I like "gain experience faster" and "mind blast counter". The "mental resistance" is OK for completeness sake (since we might get all the other resistances from orbs).

The "Vendetta" seems to be too powerful (it would be nice if an enemy boss would have it, though).

The "strength increase" seems to be a bit out of character... I don't really see Duvalier using a knife... unless Niven teaches him a trick or two... in that case, "strength increase" orb would make sense. So, I will need more information about TSoG to give a final opinion about the "strength increase".

Quote from: MikeW781 on September 01, 2010, 07:40:06 PM
Only a few bosses in TRPG2 even had mind blast, and most of them just used their elemental attack anyways. The Grey orb would only be useful if enough enemies would even attack you with mental attacks

Shadowlings, humans psys, and spirits will have mental attacks, so it could come in handy for facing many diffrent type of enemies.  As we learn in TPA2, some orbs are more valuable then others.  This orb could still be useful, even if other orbs are more useful.

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:29:05 PMlet's add "mental-resistance" to the list as well, although it isn't an element per se, but rather used for the "leftover" attacks.

There are mental attacks and leftover attacks. They are not the same.  Fernatus (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Fernatus#Stats) has mental resistance which means he takes less mindblast and feedback damage.

Quote from: Ertxiem on September 01, 2010, 08:00:07 PM
I don't really see Duvalier using a knife... unless Niven teaches him a trick or two... in that case, "strength increase" orb would make sense.

The twitter says, he will learn knife. 

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:44:35 PM
So,from the list including the following, what would you support? (I take it as a "nay" for "mental resistance" orb?)

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"
-"mental resistance"

I'm for all, except am on the fence about mental resistance. It may be an orb that seems to be put in mostly to meet the count of 15, or it could be a useful orb that we would end up using with others. It depends.

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:44:35 PM
So,from the list including the following, what would you support? (I take it as a "nay" for "mental resistance" orb?)

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"
-"mental resistance"

I'm against the Strength increase and mental resistance, but everything else is fine.

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:44:35 PM
So,from the list including the following, what would you support? (I take it as a "nay" for "mental resistance" orb?)

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"
-"mental resistance"

I am for all but strength increase and mental resistance. But I love the idea of the brown orb.

Seeem like "mental resistance" is a bit of an outsider, with 5/6 saying that it's not quite on spot. 4/6 are not sure about the "strength increase" either.  Thus, we'll wait up on these two.
"Vendetta" has 1/6 saying it's a bit too powerful, but that's more than 2/3 majority for. Thus, let's keep it on the list for now, unless more people vote against it.

So far, universal backing have (6/6):
-"mind blast counter"
-"gain experience faster"

Let's hear back from a few more folks (to get the number closer to 10), then if everyone (or vast majority) agrees, we'll make the last 2 formulated. "Vendetta" can become forumlated if most people are for it. Thus, folks, what do you think?


PS
I really like the reply format for the last 3 posters- thanks, this keeps it neat!

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:44:35 PM
So,from the list including the following, what would you support? (I take it as a "nay" for "mental resistance" orb?)

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"
-"mental resistance"

I am for all of them expcept the Strength Increase. I don't think that knife will be of much use.

Quote from: MikeW781 on September 01, 2010, 07:40:06 PMThe Grey orb would only be useful if enough enemies would even attack you with mental attacks

Enemies that a "mental resistance" orb will help one fight against:
*Iblis (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Iblis)
*Thug Boss (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Businessman)
*Shadowling Soldier (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowling_Soldier)
*Shadowling Guardian (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowling_Guardian)
*Shadowling Healer (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowling_Healer)
*Lesser Ghost (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Lesser_Ghost)
*Ghost (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Ghost)
*Greater Ghost (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Greater_Ghost)
*Blue Cape (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Cape)
*Black Cape (Cryo) (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cape_(Cryo))
*Black Cape (Healer) (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cape_(Healer))
*Black Cape (Pyro) (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cape_(Pyro))
*Black Cape (Light) (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cape_(Light))
*Black Cape (Shadow) (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cape_(Shadow))
*White Cape (Light) (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/White_Cape_(Light))

Most of them won't be encountered.

Quote from: Cypher on September 02, 2010, 11:46:55 AM
Most of them won't be encountered.

What? We are constantly encountering spirits!

He meant the shadowlings and the capes. To be honest, other resistances, especially physical, would be more useful.

Quote from: MikeW781 on September 02, 2010, 06:14:31 PM
He meant the shadowlings and the capes. To be honest, other resistances, especially physical, would be more useful.

Do you honestly think that there won't be any shadowlings or capes in the game and Craig made them just to waist time?  Other than physical, mental resistance would be the most versatile resistance, because it  would defend against almost every psy's first or second attack.

You don't seem to be heeding the second half of a statement made earlier in the dicussion (darn it.. can't find it for a quote).

Most of the time, when an enemy has even a inkling of an opportunity to use its elemental blast or area attack, it will.

Only the lesser ghost and Thug Boss really use Mind Blast most of the time.

A mental resistance orb would still be more useful than a light resistant orb(which I assume will be put in the game).  The only enemies I saw use light attacks in TSoG were energy golems.  I think it easy enough for Duvalier to just avoid the lasers.  Do you not like the idea of a White Orb in the game, because it will be less useful than a Crystal Orb?

I just felt that almost nobody used the mental attacks, because I have yet to see a Psy of any sort with no element, the Ghosts are the only creatures who used Mind Blast. The others have an elemental attack, which they use more because it is stronger. Especially those with Elemental Blast, which is all-around better than mind blast when they have unlimited Psp. The skill coeffficiant of mind blast is 1/2, while the elemental blasts is 3 (shadow is 2).

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 07:44:35 PM
So,from the list including the following, what would you support? (I take it as a "nay" for "mental resistance" orb?)

-"gain experience faster"
-"Vendetta"
-"strength increase"
-"mind blast counter"
-"mental resistance"

Ok, we have the following break-down of votes for orbs:

-"mind blast counter"  7/7
-"gain experience faster" 7/7
-"Vendetta" 6/7
-"mental resistance" 2/7
-"strength increase" 2/7

Thus, I'll make the first 2 formulated. Vendetta will also become formulated due to only Ertxiem mildly objecting to it.

The other two ideas didn't really get much support.

For "mental resistance", actually, maybe because it will significantly reduce the damage of the most potent enemies Craig will not include it because it is... too powerful! That's a possibility.

As for "strength increase"- I'd rather not see any orb that could only be used under highly specific circumstances- I'd rather see orbs used by all players, no matter how they decide to act during the optional content (well, save for those instances which are required to get the said orbs)- same issue of restrictivness as people are having with affinities affecting player stats.

Quote from: KZ on September 03, 2010, 05:18:12 PM
For "mental resistance", actually, maybe because it will significantly reduce the damage of the most potent enemies Craig will not include it because it is... too powerful! That's a possibility.

Too powerful? The strongest enemies all used elemental blasts in TRPG2, and I don't see that changing because they are larger and stronger blasts. Fernatus didn't even have Mind Blast, and he's the only boss we fought.

I am referring here to the list im2smart4u kindly provided on the previous page - it contains the most powerful human and Shadowling units. Plus, Iblis has this evil Feedback attack!

Ok, folks, how about this orb idea (not too appealing, in my opinion, but still): an orb which increases Duvalier's aptitude or personality by 5/10: this will allow many more dialogue options to be available, he'll also be able to lead more men in battle earlier, etc.

And orb which increases Psy Power and another orb which increases Psy Defence by 5 or 10 units? (Much more useful than the idea above- allows the player to have a more defensive/offensice Duvalier depending on the situation, may allow the player to avoid loads of gold farming if Duvalier is too defensively or too offensively trained, which makes one battle very hard indeed, for instance.)

I think those 4 orbs are acceptable (although I'm not that enthusiastic too).

The Psy Power Orb and the Psy Defence Orb have in common with the violet orb and the blood orb the increase of maximum PsP and health, respectively.

The personality orb and the aptitude orb would have most use in dialogues, rather than in battle as the other orbs.


I took a look at the already existing orbs (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Orbs), according to the wiki.

We already saw 13 orbs in the TRPG universe:
8 orbs from TRPG 2 (4 resistances + 4 abilities),
2 more orbs that appeared in TPA1 (1 resistance + 1 flying, and a replacement in the red orb functionality),
3 orbs in TPA2  (1 health, 1 PsP and 1 regenerate health) and
The Indigo Orb that gives the Titan Shield replaces the Indigo Orb functionality in TRPG2.

With the main categories:
- 5 resistance orbs (4 elements + physical);
- 6 ability orbs (speed, fly, PsP recover, health recover, max PsP, max health);
- 2 attack orbs (pyro hail / vengeance, big / titan shield).

About the 5+4 orb suggestions:
- 1 orb (mental resistance) would fall in the resistance orbs category, naturally;
- 3+4 orbs (mind blast counter, gain experience faster, strength increase and the 4 KZ just suggested) would fall into the ability orbs category;
- 1 orb (vendetta, quite fitted to be the red orb) would belong in the new attack orbs.

So it seems that the attacks category is the one with less orbs and our suggestions aren't enough to fill that gap. But, to be honest, I can't really suggest anything unique for Duvalier that keeps the game balanced - using 4 orbs of the above will already make Duvalier significantly more powerful than the other teammates.

Mm, exactly- I sort of put it out there to get a move on next ideas. Can't really thinking of anything that can be particularly useful in battle- we have, effectively, covered the resistances, the abilities and the more powerful attacks (Vendetta, Titan Shield). I have to note, however, that we have practically reached the limit of how many orbs there will be in the game, so the question is- do we actually need any more orb ideas? Assuming the 3 suggestions which became formulated come through, we have, as Ert noted, the 12 original orbs (we still don't know what will replace the Crimson and Red orbs- hopefully vendetta), and with "Vendetta", "mind blast counter" and "learn experience faster", we have 15/16 orb places.  And I think that Craig has already ideas of his own.
But in case he hasn't, I completely agree with Ert on the attack category. And I think I do have an idea which might not disbalance the game (though I wonder how much re-coding that might entail)- why not give Duvalier solid state shield? And if that would require too much re-coding, why not give him some auxiliary ability, maybe Leap? (Though wait, that doesn't really work for teleporting through objects, and Azure Orb takes care of that. But something to that effect- maybe one of Luca's abilities?)

With that said, I have a final orb that is different in its own sense (Its the only thing left to add to combat!)

Grey Orb: Duvalier's attacks ingnore Enemy's Resistances and Immunities.

When I wrote my previous post, I was thoinking that Duvalier could get an orb that gives him soul suck or leap. I discarded leap because the azure orb will somewhat cover that area. The soul suck could be nice, but I hesitated because it may allow Duvalier to easily solo all the battles from that moment on. The solid state shield is not a bad idea (but I don't see it as a very good one either).

The grey orb seems to be too powerful as is. What if the resistances become only 25% and the immunities are treated as resistances (50% damage reduction)?

I'm fine with that. The Question is: Does everyone like this idea aswell.


Grey Orb: When Duvalier's Affinity attacks hit Resistance, Damage goes down by 25%, with Immunities 50%.

Quote from: MikeW781 on September 03, 2010, 05:27:33 PM

Quote from: KZ on September 03, 2010, 05:18:12 PM
For "mental resistance", actually, maybe because it will significantly reduce the damage of the most potent enemies Craig will not include it because it is... too powerful! That's a possibility.

Too powerful? The strongest enemies all used elemental blasts in TRPG2, and I don't see that changing because they are larger and stronger blasts. Fernatus didn't even have Mind Blast, and he's the only boss we fought.

You avoid my earlier question.  Do you think the White Orb shouldn't be included in the game, because there are not enough Light-using enemies?  If you don't think the mental resistance orb should be included because it is not useful enough, then you should also wish for Craig to not include the White Orb.

Quote from: KZ on September 03, 2010, 05:33:35 PMOk, folks, how about this orb idea (not too appealing, in my opinion, but still): an orb which increases Duvalier's aptitude or personality by 5/10: this will allow many more dialogue options to be available, he'll also be able to lead more men in battle earlier, etc.

And orb which increases Psy Power and another orb which increases Psy Defence by 5 or 10 units? (Much more useful than the idea above- allows the player to have a more defensive/offensice Duvalier depending on the situation, may allow the player to avoid loads of gold farming if Duvalier is too defensively or too offensively trained, which makes one battle very hard indeed, for instance.)

Boosting Psy Power, Psy Defence, Apitude, or Personality with an orb seems like a lame substitute for earning gold and training.

Quote from: KZ on September 03, 2010, 07:27:07 PM
But in case he hasn't, I completely agree with Ert on the attack category. And I think I do have an idea which might not disbalance the game (though I wonder how much re-coding that might entail)- why not give Duvalier solid state shield? And if that would require too much re-coding, why not give him some auxiliary ability, maybe Leap? (Though wait, that doesn't really work for teleporting through objects, and Azure Orb takes care of that. But something to that effect- maybe one of Luca's abilities?)

Since Duvalier will be able to learn knife, giving him Leap would further take away Arman's uniqueness.  If you give Duvalier solid state shield, then Set will not have any attack of his own, because you can't learn soild state shield without leaning static shiled.

Quote from: Zackirus on September 03, 2010, 08:42:54 PM
Grey Orb: When Duvalier's Affinity attacks hit Resistance, Damage goes down by 25%, with Immunities 50%.

I will support it, if you can explain how the orb would allow him to ignore resistances and immunites.

Quote from: im2smart4uDon't incorrectly tell me what my beliefs are!

Other people don't tend to like it either when you do the same. The Light Resistance Orb is useful because of sheer usage of the energy golems, whereas a mental resistance orb would only apply in the first 2 cellar fights and only the boss in a side-quest, an uncommon enemy in a gold-farming mission, and by the time you've gotten to Crypt 2, we're mostly on to Ghosts or Greaters.

Point 2: It's not a substitute. It's an alternative idea, as the first was never set in stone. The character isn't handicapped in that he can't earn gold and move xp. Farming is an okay thing.

Point 3: Arman's "uniqueness" would never be taken away. If we came up with an idea like that, which might intrude on another ally's niche, "New Teammate Attack Ideas" is overflowing, and should be able to pick up the slack. I hear the idea of Poison Stab is popular. Maybe you could check it out.

Point 4: [You reach out and touch the orb. Suddenly, everything is dull, numb, and mute. You are overcome with a wave of anxiety, vaguely wondering what those shapes are. Suddenly, everything comes back into focus, and you can see every detail of the people around you, and find that they are not as resistant as you thought they were]

Often times, the comments offer no more explanation than that. Perhaps you could come up with one yourself, if you're so eager to see and explanation.

Quote from: algebra17 on September 04, 2010, 12:35:24 AMOther people don't tend to like it either when you do the same. The Light Resistance Orb is useful because of sheer usage of the energy golems, whereas a mental resistance orb would only apply in the first 2 cellar fights and only the boss in a side-quest, an uncommon enemy in a gold-farming mission, and by the time you've gotten to Crypt 2, we're mostly on to Ghosts or Greaters.

Are you still being pissy, because I pointed out how unbelievably dumb the Soul Capacitor was?  I never put words into anyone's mouth.  I asked a question?  I think you didn't noctice that more than lesser ghosts use mind blast.  Go back and read my list of enemies that use mental attacks.  Since we should have a white orb, becuase of the "sheer usage of the energy golems", then we should have a mental resistance orb because of the sheer usage of spirits, the sheer usage of shadowlings, the sheer usage of capes, and the sheer usage of est.

Quote from: algebra17 on September 04, 2010, 12:35:24 AMPoint 3: Arman's "uniqueness" would never be taken away. If we came up with an idea like that, which might intrude on another ally's niche, "New Teammate Attack Ideas" is overflowing, and should be able to pick up the slack. I hear the idea of Poison Stab is popular. Maybe you could check it out.

So, even if Duvalier recieved all of Arman's attacks, Arman will still never lose his uniqueness? Do you realize that "unique" means "being the only one"?  I like Poison Stab, but it would not work due to the fact that it messes with enemy AI.

Quote from: algebra17 on September 04, 2010, 12:35:24 AMPoint 4: [You reach out and touch the orb. Suddenly, everything is dull, numb, and mute. You are overcome with a wave of anxiety, vaguely wondering what those shapes are. Suddenly, everything comes back into focus, and you can see every detail of the people around you, and find that they are not as resistant as you thought they were]

Often times, the comments offer no more explanation than that. Perhaps you could come up with one yourself, if you're so eager to see and explanation.

If I was able to think of a way for his orb to work, then I would have supported it.  Your explination doesn't make any sense.  Why would the Hero's perception of enemy resistance remove the enemy's resistance?

Ok folks, let's relax here. Both of you made points enough, but let's not forget that the subject of your initial debate is pointless, as people effectively discarded the idea- hence, there is no point in both of you spoiling each other's moods.
Let's just say that im2msart4u, you can be quite frivolous with interpretation of the selected quotes from other people, and can be quite bullish/aggressive when logically arguing your point.
Algebra17, just wanted to say that sometimes it's best to live something as is and move on, especially when the original argument becomes baseless through redundancy.


Ok, about the orb- I can give an explanation, but I am in a rush right now, so will make an edit about it later.

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 03, 2010, 10:37:49 PM

Quote from: MikeW781 on September 03, 2010, 05:27:33 PM

Quote from: KZ on September 03, 2010, 05:18:12 PM
For "mental resistance", actually, maybe because it will significantly reduce the damage of the most potent enemies Craig will not include it because it is... too powerful! That's a possibility.

Too powerful? The strongest enemies all used elemental blasts in TRPG2, and I don't see that changing because they are larger and stronger blasts. Fernatus didn't even have Mind Blast, and he's the only boss we fought.

You avoid my earlier question.  Do you think the White Orb shouldn't be included in the game, because there are not enough Light-using enemies?  If you don't think the mental resistance orb should be included because it is not useful enough, then you should also wish for Craig to not include the White Orb.

I used the White Orb in TRPG2, both for fighting Golems, Nelis, Tastidian, and the Psy Acadamey battles. I found it very useful.

Quote from: MikeW781 on September 04, 2010, 10:15:21 AM

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 03, 2010, 10:37:49 PMYou avoid my earlier question.  Do you think the White Orb shouldn't be included in the game, because there are not enough Light-using enemies?  If you don't think the mental resistance orb should be included because it is not useful enough, then you should also wish for Craig to not include the White Orb.

I used the White Orb in TRPG2, both for fighting Golems, Nelis, Tastidian, and the Psy Acadamey battles. I found it very useful.

I don't think we are going to refight Nelis, Tastidian, or Dean Lukas in TSoG, so I don't think that is a good bases to keep the White Orb. In TPA2 (which is closer to TSoG then TRPG2), there are only two enemies that use light attacks and one of those enemies uses mind blast too.  In TSoG, we will be facing mental attack users such as spirits, shadowlings, and possible capes.

It is ridiculous to reject the mental resistance orb just because other orbs might me more useful for some players.  Should the crimson, indigo, and yellow orb be remove from TRPG2, because people found the green orb more useful (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=187.0)?

Quote from: Zackirus on August 20, 2010, 02:30:11 PMGrey Orb: Gives Duvalier mental-resistance

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 01, 2010, 06:49:56 PM

Quote from: KZ on September 01, 2010, 06:40:29 PM(Just to be clear, im2msart4u,you agree with  the 3 orbs you mentioned in your first post, right?)

I agree with Beige, Red, Tan, Brown, and Grey.

Quote from: Ertxiem on September 01, 2010, 08:00:07 PMThe "mental resistance" is OK for completeness sake (since we might get all the other resistances from orbs).

Quote from: KZ on September 03, 2010, 05:18:12 PM-"mental resistance" 2/7

You may need to recount.

I deleted the off-topic posts and combined the double-post into one.
MikeW781, I would like to say exactly what I told algebra17 just on the previous page:

Quote from: KZ on September 04, 2010, 07:45:53 AM
Algebra17, just wanted to say that sometimes it's best to live something as is and move on, especially when the original argument becomes baseless through redundancy.

im2smart4u: I'll re-look into the count, but we've moved our discussion onwards to new ideas which might be better to suggest to Craig.
Cypher, Zackirus is right- let us take  care of that ;)
In any case, let's move the discussion  on: what do you think of the orb which turns immunities into resistnaces, and resitances are only half as efficient as before?
Complaints were that there is no good explanation for it, well how about this:
the orb allows the user to be more apprecaitive of the tiniest disturbances and uneven districbutions in the surrounding air on particle level. As such, Duvalier is able to see/find and exploit any minute imperfections in the enemy's defenses and thus, with the same amount of force, simply be able to apply it more effectively (for immunities- you know of bullet-proof glass, then you might know that often there is a weak-spot which allows one to break the glass, thus it may be exactly the same in this respect as well). Thus, this orb allows to exploit weakness in defense on an atomic level.

Thus, who's for and who's against an orb which:
- turns Immunity into Resistance and Resistances only reduce damage by 25%



PS
Ok, just done re-count of all orbs- Ert's was neutral, effectively, I think I skipped it last time. Thus, 3/7 which is less than 50%, thus, for now it's a no go. Let's see what other suggestions there will be- if anything is more popular, then we'll come back to it, otherwise we'll stick with more popular ideas (e.g. immunity/resistance orb might be more popular, etc).

Okay, I have to say that now that we've gone through all the basic ideas, we're on borderline far-fetched. How about an orb that would let Duvalier "phase through" an obstacle. For example, if he were to be trapped in a corner, or needed to reach a place fast, without bothering with a destructible batttlefield object to get through, we could say...

Chartreuse Orb:

[As you touch the orb, everything suddenly goes rigid. The ground beneath you seems more solid, and more real; the air refuses to bend for you. A wave of panic washes over you. Then, like the feeling was never there, it dissappears. Now if you look closely at a wall, you think it might let you pass through if you tried...]

Gives you the ability "Phase":

Cost: 6 PsP and 5 Health
Range: 2 spaces
Status Effect: Lets you pass through a wall obstale in return for PsP and Health.

Background (Why it works, to satisfy certain members or the forums):

Duvalier, with the help of the orb, has now realized that the distances between the actual particles in the atoms that make up his structure are huge distances away, proportionately. Now he can use his Psy abilities to quickly negate those forces which hold his and an obstacle's atoms apart, and pass through. However, during the process, there is a chance that some structural damage occurs on the atomic level. So, if he's feeling weak, attempting this might not be the best idea.

Effectively, what you're suggesting with the orbs is that Duvalier learns the human equivalent of Shadowport, right?

What do you think of the immunity into resistance, resistance halved idea?

Im for the immunity/resistance orb.

Oh, whoops! I didn't realize that there was a debate over which function! I meant the resistance/immunity orb.

Which one are you referring to? The mental resistance, or the immunity/resistance reduction orb?
I'd kindly ask for people to refer to the orb function, rather than orb name- that's really for Craig to decice  and it does prevent confusion and pointless backtracking to see which orb means what.
(Thus, here I'll make an educated guess you meant the latter and not the former functionality.)

I don't particularly like KZ's explanation, but I like the immunity/resistance orb idea enough to overlook that fact.

What aspect of it you find dodgy/not very appealing? (I agree, it's not the smoothest explanation offered, but it does explain what happens). Can you provide/fill in the gaps for the explanation?
I also like the idea enough to try and find better/refine the explanation for it right now.
(Ok, 4 people for the idea, 1 more possibly for. Let's hear from about 3-5 more people to get this on track to becoming formalised.)

Yay for the immunity/resistance orb.

Quote from: KZ on September 04, 2010, 02:12:21 PM
What aspect of it you find dodgy/not very appealing? (I agree, it's not the smoothest explanation offered, but it does explain what happens). Can you provide/fill in the gaps for the explanation?
I also like the idea enough to try and find better/refine the explanation for it right now.
(Ok, 4 people for the idea, 1 more possibly for. Let's hear from about 3-5 more people to get this on track to becoming formalised.)

I don't understand how the orb would apply to spirits unsolid bodies or Spriggats element-proof skin.

I like phase on general but what if instead of teleporting, it gave Duvalier the ability to walk through objects on the battlefield ( enemies, friends, walls, etc.) there was a starting psp cost, but a health cost for every object he walks through?

Okay, but then there's the added challenge of coding the idea that 2 people can be in the same square, and if we go with my explanation (which, of course, we might not) then Duvalier needs to keep his time in decoherence short. Otherwise, he would effectively fall apart.

Ok, thanks im2smart4u. I think I can explain the ghosts: was discussed previously in the ghosts ability to move through objects in juxtapose, the spirit simply assimilates a volume of particles around itsself to give it physical form (ie condensed air on where the spirit is localised), and when one breaks through the Spirit's defenses, one effectively severs temporarily the spirit's control over the condensed particles, so they go back to their original (gas) state. What Duvalier can now do is note the imperfections in the way the form takes shape, such that he'll attack in the weak places (like driving a wedge into a log/tree- requires less force to severe/topple it) and thus will be able to deal more damage with the same amount of power- this orb simply increases his awareness of the surroundings and flows of particles around him.
For Spriggats, that's a bit different and more difficult, but remember that, from discussion on old forums, what the Spriggats have is simply chemical coatings which keep the Spriggat from harming him/her-self, so again, I guess it's the same principle- the cover isn't uniform, he can find some weak places and exploit them (think of paint on a car- if you find a scratch, soon the old cars will form rust on the place, and more and more of the paint will peel off, revealing more iron for air to oxidise and thus form more rust- a cascading process- methinks it's the same idea, hurt the Spriggat in the weakest places and expand the attack).
How does this sound, folks?

Thus, who else is for/against immunity/resistance orb?

I agree on the immunity/resistance orb. It would be very useful. Very useful against Fernatus. If we had it by then, that is.

OK, folks: immunity/resistance orb has so far 6/6 voting yes on it. A couple of more people adding in their voices, and this gets formulated.
After which, I'd like to point out, all the spaces will effectively be filled for the orbs! (Unless I mis-counted, if someone could kindly check?)

If it takes up all 15 spaces, that doesn't mean that we can't try thinking of more. Craig may not like some of them and toss 'em out the metaphorical window.

I agree there, I am just saying that if all the ideas get in, that will be sweet and we'll be all complete. Otherwise, we sure can have back-up ideas, why not?

Pink Orb- Inverses elemental affinity.

"As you pick up the orb, you feel a dizzy and black put. You wake up several seconds later and realize you can no longer control (fire/ice/light/shadow). Instead you feel that you can control (insert opposite here).

Opposites could be:
Fire-Ice
Light-Shadow

Quote from: KZ on September 04, 2010, 12:34:22 PM[...]
Thus, who's for and who's against an orb which:
- turns Immunity into Resistance and Resistances only reduce damage by 25%

PS
Ok, just done re-count of all orbs- Ert's was neutral, effectively, I think I skipped it last time. Thus, 3/7 which is less than 50%, thus, for now it's a no go. Let's see what other suggestions there will be- if anything is more popular, then we'll come back to it, otherwise we'll stick with more popular ideas (e.g. immunity/resistance orb might be more popular, etc).

I'm in favour of that orb. And I really enjoyed the way the explanations of the way it works are growing. I just like to point out that I think that something else could be said so that it wouldn't appear that all attacks should make more damage, instead of only the ones against a resistance. I'll think about it and I will say something later.

You can count my vote for the "mental resistance" orb. I have a slightly positive opinion about it. (Previously, when my opinion was counted as neutral, then either my vote should be counted as 0.5 in favour or I wouldn't count on the total voters, hence we would have 3.5/7 people, or 3/6 people in favour).

I dislike the inverses elemental affinity orb. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote from: bugfartboy on September 04, 2010, 04:30:56 PM
Pink Orb- Inverses elemental affinity.

"As you pick up the orb, you feel a dizzy and black put. You wake up several seconds later and realize you can no longer control (fire/ice/light/shadow). Instead you feel that you can control (insert opposite here).

I don't even think an orb would make it that easy to learn other elements.  Why Pink?

I just saw a towel and thought, "I havnt seen a pink orb yet".

While I don't think it fits, I'd like to say that perhaps the orb wouldn't help you learn the other element, but reverse your efforts. Were you trying to heat something up, it would cool down, and vice versa. That way, you would still have one element, and use it the same way, but if you are playing against an enemy with a resistance to your element...

It should probably be too bad, so that you have to have an enemy be resistant to you some of the time.

Why I defend ideas I myself don't even support, I don't know.

Ok, the immunity/resistance orb has 7/7 votes for, thus I shall be adding it to formulated.


Personally, I am against the Pink Orb/inverse affinity (and the colour doesn't matter really- it's arbitrary and won't carry through anyway, so why bother- better stick to orb functionality to make things clear), as it does not make sense to me either, and I do not see any use for it much (plus, it might be difficult to code in as well, swapping attacks of one element to another- loads of potential bugs await).

I too, dislike the Pink Orb.

I'm sorry but I could never give up light to become shadow

You wouldn't have to use the orb...

Darn it! There I go again!

Quote from: bugfartboy on September 04, 2010, 04:54:33 PM
I just saw a towel and thought, "I havnt seen a pink orb yet".

You have pink towels?  :-X

Quote from: Ertxiem on September 04, 2010, 04:35:02 PMYou can count my vote for the "mental resistance" orb. I have a slightly positive opinion about it. (Previously, when my opinion was counted as neutral, then either my vote should be counted as 0.5 in favour or I wouldn't count on the total voters, hence we would have 3.5/7 people, or 3/6 people in favour).

Does anyone else want to change their vote, so they can protect themselves from Mind Blast?

"Not I," said the duck.

Mind Blast is an attack we just ought to just have to strategize around. Surely a brilliant strategist like yourself, who uses the fact that he plays on Brutal Friendly Fire as an argument point, should be able to manage surviving despite a rather weak attack remaining unresisted?

Quote from: Duckling on September 04, 2010, 09:10:43 PM
"Not I," said the duck.

Mind Blast is an attack we just ought to just have to strategize around. Surely a brilliant strategist like yourself, who uses the fact that he plays on Brutal Friendly Fire as an argument point, should be able to manage surviving despite a rather weak attack remaining unresisted?

Why would you "strategize around" mind blast? I try to force enemies to attack with mind blast, because it is their weaker attack.  Using a mental resistance orb with that strategy would be very beneficial.

I can see that. But I can also see the value in hit-and-run methodology, which doesn't really need much in the way of resistance, so I'm not exactly familiar with your strategy, meaning I'm not the best judge for this. If you would like the mental resistance orb, well, there's nothing I can do for you there, but I can still see your point.

Quote from: Duckling on September 04, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
I can see that. But I can also see the value in hit-and-run methodology, which doesn't really need much in the way of resistance, so I'm not exactly familiar with your strategy, meaning I'm not the best judge for this. If you would like the mental resistance orb, well, there's nothing I can do for you there, but I can still see your point.

Is that a yay or nay?

That is still a nay.

Quote from: Duckling on September 04, 2010, 11:04:42 PM
That is still a nay.

So, since you won't personally use it, then it shouldn't be in the game?  If I only want to use healing attacks with Duvalier, then would it be fair for me to say I want all the elemental attacks removed?

Quote from: Duckling on September 04, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
I can see that. But I can also see the value in hit-and-run methodology, which doesn't really need much in the way of resistance

With the "hit-and-run methodology" don't you often get hit?  You strike, the enemy strikes back, you retreat to heal, and then you strike again.  Wouldn't it be better to have resistance when the enemy strikes?  Your argument sounds like you are against all resistances.

KZ, you never properly explained why you don't like the mental resistance orb.

If you have a problem, PM KZ.

Thanks, Vanquish, but I'll pass.

The argument for suggesting Orbs (or anything else) that it's supported by the majority of the regulars is based on 2 assumptions:
1. We are assuming that the majority of the regulars around here have an opinion close to the majority of the people that enjoy playing games like TSoG.
2. Craig takes time developing new content.
So we would prefer him to use his time creating something that we would like to see instead of him using his time to create something that we would dislike.

When I'm thinking on a suggestion one of the things that I think about is if it's interesting to multiple players (with different styles) or is it only interesting to few players. I tend to give more support to suggestions that may be interesting to many people.

Well, methinks it's worth supporting those suggestions that you personally like, thus producing the statistics we work with- after all, we are all part of the group which, thanks to Craig, has some (limited) influence over what goes into TSoG. And some great ideas we have come up with over time, methinks ;)

The issue I have with the mental orb is that there are several unclassified attacks in the wiki, including the Tig, which make it ambigous as to how they should be classed- I suspect that it was simply an omission during production of TPA2, but either way, I'd rather first see all attacks classed, then see an orb which might apply to some of them. Otherwise, I don't mind it too much, but certainly prefer all the other ideas that eventually got formulated over it.

Quote from: KZ on September 06, 2010, 01:30:00 PMThe issue I have with the mental orb is that there are several unclassified attacks in the wiki, including the Tig, which make it ambigous as to how they should be classed- I suspect that it was simply an omission during production of TPA2, but either way, I'd rather first see all attacks classed, then see an orb which might apply to some of them. Otherwise, I don't mind it too much, but certainly prefer all the other ideas that eventually got formulated over it.

The ambigous attacks will not be afected by any orbs.  We already know that mindblast, feedback, and vengeance are not ambigous, because they were weakened when attacking Fernatus's mental resistance.  The Tig attack will probably end up physical like Sand Blast.

Well, ok, you persuaded me:  I'll go with "yay" then on this one, but in that case, I'd couple that to all attacks becoming classified, so there is not a single attack which remains un-classed- otherwise there will be voids which are hard to explain.

(Tig- "aerial" class, in terms of   a gas clowd? Or simply, hopefully, physical.)

I think it is time for revote for the mental-resistance orb.  I also don't "nays" should count unless you give a reason behind it.

I don't think it's fair to discard clearly expressed votes. Some people may vote yay or nay based on the previous discussion but not mentioning it.

Quote from: KZ on September 04, 2010, 06:14:12 PM
- an orb which, when equipped, changes enemy immunity to resistance status (thus, damage decrease going from 100% to 50%), and changes resitance damage decrease from 50% to 25%.

Shouldn't inanimate objects always have a mental resistance? Just saying, as, if it's inanimate, it wouldn't be affected by mental attacks at all, what with the lack of a mind and all.

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 06, 2010, 01:59:31 PM
I also don't "nays" should count unless you give a reason behind it.

We count both the "yay" and the "nays", nomatter what reason is given- be that emotional (for some reason a "yay I like it" counts without question - the reverse should also be counted then) or otherwise.
'Cause what you propose in the real world is called "election rigging".

Fine, folks- can you kindly re-vote on the mental resistance orb.

I vote "yay" with a clause I mention in the previous post.

I vote "Nay" as in no. (Just to be extra-clear)

I have been swayed by the arguements posted here- I vote "yay"

Guess we overlooked that part- not sure if that would present certain problems for Craig to code in and to allow inanimate objects to keep their physical immunity.  A very good point, that!

Though, maybe, one can explain that since a mind blast, for instance, works by overloading synapses with info, thefore creating many electric currents in the brain- if that's applied to a stone or a plant, surely a though which is given electric form will deal some damage to them?

Quote from: KZ on September 06, 2010, 05:14:43 PMThough, maybe, one can explain that since a mind blast, for instance, works by overloading synapses with info, thefore creating many electric currents in the brain- if that's applied to a stone or a plant, surely a though which is given electric form will deal some damage to them?

That is a stretch. 

Duskling, try to mention this stuff before formulation.

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 06, 2010, 06:15:58 PM
Duskling, try to mention this stuff before formulation.

Sorry, I don't think I noticed that idea earlier, I don't pay much attention to the wishlist anymore.

Agree 100% there- it's a big stretch. Suggest making battlefield objects exception to the rule, thus shall we vote on this?

I don't think he was online when we formulated it. Plus, you know, ideas come and go, and not always in a timely fashion.

Vote on what? What did I miss?

[spoiler]Why doesnt someone just set up a poll to vote? Then take the stats to find whether or not to include it? Then remove the poll.[/spoiler]

Ok:  Duskling highly perceptively noted that the orb which reduces immunity to resistance will also affect battlefield objects, but surely if they have no brain, things like mind blast (overloading brain with info) and the likes shouldn't work on them?
Thus, I suggest that the "battlefield objects" class of enemies should not be affected by the orb.


About polls: believe it or not, this is actually faster and more coherent/productive: it's like the roman forums, everyone has their say, one can give arguments for and against, and this is also open voting, so if people really wanted something, they could attempt to politely persuade the other person of their views and know which objections to try and counter.

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 06, 2010, 06:28:02 PM
Can we rename this topic to avoid confusion?

Why? It is discussion about new orb ideas and how to best apply them: we just simply found a fault with one of the ideas and are quickly coming up with a "patch".
The poll for the mental orb resistance is still on, so a new orb idea is still under discussion.

We don't necessarily need to hear the reasons. The users voting are supposed to represent the players of the game. Not all of them would have a spoken reason for not really thinking that the mental resistance orb had been worth adding.

Quote from: KZ on September 06, 2010, 04:49:01 PM

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 06, 2010, 01:59:31 PM
I also don't "nays" should count unless you give a reason behind it.

We count both the "yay" and the "nays", nomatter what reason is given- be that emotional (for some reason a "yay I like it" counts without question - the reverse should also be counted then) or otherwise.
'Cause what you propose in the real world is called "election rigging".

Fine, folks- can you kindly re-vote on the mental resistance orb.

I vote "yay" with a clause I mention in the previous post.

Like in Congress, you are expected to give a reason behind your vote.  How else will be able to discuss it.  If you didn't clearify your reason behind you earlier vote, then we wouldn't come to a consensus.

Well, those who wish, can voice their reasons, whilst others simply can clearly indicate what they're voting for. Certainly makes my role much easier, especially as sometimes people change their votes, etc.

In any case, what vote you on the issue with the immujnity/reisstance orb?



im2smart4u: unlike in congress, some people are judging by their "gut feelings" and simple likes/dislikes, which is fine aorund here- after all, we're trying to find suggestions which have the most appeal to fans, thus emulating a political system will not quite correctly model the current situation (it's like taking opinion polls of the voters- some may have very good logical reasons, whislt others vote out of pure emotion).

Perhaps the pool could be in a different thread and people could change their mind. The discussion would be on that specific thread. It may have the disadvantage of spreading too much the discussions.

For the "mind resistance orb" I vote a not too enthusiastic yay.

The enemy resistance reducer orb may even work on battlefield objects. Either directly affecting microbes living in it (making them explode with mind blast :P ) or indirectly, say, by Duvalier being able to feel the presence of little bits of metal (or other conductive materials) and creating electric currents that, in turn, create electro-magnetic fields in them that would push different parts of the material apart, thus effectively dealing damage. A bit far-fetched but not impossible.

Mental Resistance vote
"Nay"
*Duckling
*Cypher
*The Holy namelesskitty

"Yay"
*KZ
*MikeW781
*Ertxiem
*im2smart4u
*Zackirus
*bugfartboy

Does anyone want to add or change their vote?

I vote yay for Mental Resistance and yay for the enemy resistance orb.

Quote from: Ertxiem on September 06, 2010, 06:40:15 PMThe enemy resistance reducer orb may even work on battlefield objects. Either directly affecting microbes living in it (making them explode with mind blast :P ) or indirectly, say, by Duvalier being able to feel the presence of little bits of metal (or other conductive materials) and creating electric currents that, in turn, create electro-magnetic fields in them that would push different parts of the material apart, thus effectively dealing damage. A bit far-fetched but not impossible.

I am not completly sure what you are suggesting.

Nay for both.

Quote from: The Holy namelesskitty on September 06, 2010, 07:02:42 PM
Nay for both.

Do you have a reason or just in a naying type of mood?

Ert is effectively suggesting what I did in a more scientific way: Duvalier somehow manages to influence bits and pieces inside inanimate objects to electrocute them (what mind blast does, really- as it overloads the brain synapses with too many electromagnetic impulses- info).


namelesskitty, just to make sure- you say "nay" to not counting battlefield objects amongst enemies which are influenced by the already accepted and formalised immunity/resistance orb?

Quote from: KZ on September 06, 2010, 07:05:31 PM
Ert is effectively suggesting what I did in a more scientific way: Duvalier somehow manages to influence bits and pieces inside inanimate objects to electrocute them (what mind blast does, really- as it overloads the brain synapses with too many electromagnetic impulses- info).

Nay, because it is too big of a stretch. Can you honestly tell me that you see yourself useing that type of orb just to do damage on inanimate objects?  An elemental blast would be more effective anyway.

You know, actually, that was quite frustrating initially, when things like Soul Suck no longer worked on inanimate objects. I actually would use it, especially in things like getting chests and getting inanimate objects out of the way- I've created quite a few maps back in the day where destroying them was crucial, and not being able to use a cheap and effective attack like Feedback or Mind Blast greatly increased the difficulty of the game. So- yep. But I do agree that the explanation is too big of a stretch, unfortunately.

I would have liked to beat the battle in which the cracked rock blocks the entrance to the bandits' hideout with only Duvalier, and I did, but only by timing my attacks so precisely that I got rid of all the enemies before the reinforcements came. I was on Bandit 53, and Longbowman 17. I really would have liked to have that orb right about then.

Quote from: im2smart4uAre you suggesting that just because you won't use it, it shouldn't be in the game?

If we're going to have an orb that beats resists and immunes, I'd like to see it work on everything.

Quote from: Duckling on September 06, 2010, 07:16:30 PM
If we're going to have an orb that beats resists and immunes, I'd like to see it work on everything.

I take that as a "yay"?

I make that "yay" as well, though I'd love to see a good explanation for this (and it's certaily much less hassle for Craig as well- no need to code in exceptions to the rule).


PS
Ok, so far we have 4 "yay" and 2 "nay".
namelesskitty, if you don't mind, can you explain why you wouldn't want immunity/resistance working on battlefield objects?

Nay, bacause an orb will have a very hard time protecting you physically, as for the other, it just gives me a sense that even though it sounds good it will not go over well.

Quote from: The Holy namelesskitty on September 06, 2010, 07:21:34 PM
it sounds good it will not go over well.

With respect to whom? Craig? The general forum populace?
If the latter, then the majority actually are in support. If the former- I guess it's for Craig himself to ultimately decide on all of the formulated ideas- and this is fan generated stuff. ;)

What do you think the orb does? It sounds like you think it does something it doesn't.

Quote from: KZ on September 06, 2010, 07:13:58 PM
You know, actually, that was quite frustrating initially, when things like Soul Suck no longer worked on inanimate objects.

Will the orb effect other teammate's attacks because that is a diffrent story.  How will the orb effect Iblis?

Quote from: Duckling on September 06, 2010, 07:16:30 PM
I would have liked to beat the battle in which the cracked rock blocks the entrance to the bandits' hideout with only Duvalier, and I did, but only by timing my attacks so precisely that I got rid of all the enemies before the reinforcements came. I was on Bandit 53, and Longbowman 17. I really would have liked to have that orb right about then.

Quote from: im2smart4uAre you suggesting that just because you won't use it, it shouldn't be in the game?

If we're going to have an orb that beats resists and immunes, I'd like to see it work on everything.

Thanks for taking my quote out of context.  You said how you see how other people could use the orb, but since you couldn't use it yourself, then you didn't want it in the game.  I ask whether anyone would use the orb.

Ok, let me clarify folks: with respect to the immunity/resistance orb, it stands thus: it reduces 100% decrease in attack damage to 50% (thus, from Immunity to Resistance) and from 59% to 25% (thus halves the effect of resistance). Issue: should this orb affect inanimate battlefield objects?

Iblis will be affected only by attacks of Duvalier and no one else. Having even a single teammate who can pack a punch with mind blast would be useful. Iblis' immunity will be not as effective, and resistance will also be halved. Thus, the orb will affect both of the properties.

I would use it.

Does this orb apply to teammates? After all, Duvalier sees the weaknesses, and he's also speaking to them in their heads, so he could tell them where the weak spots were in an enemy.

Nope: all the orbs apply solely to Duvalier. In this case, I think it's pretty easy to explain- you cannot make a blind person see a bird on a tree, you can point it out to them, but they'll still not see it. I think it's the same here, the fluctuations in defense are so fast, that by the time Duvalier conveyed part of the message, it will be too late- too much info in too much short time (ike trying to do as many tasks per second as your computer does: you simply cannot keep up with that).

Got it.

My bad. When you said

QuoteIblis will be affected only by attacks of Duvalier and no one else. Having even a single teammate who can pack a punch with mind blast would be useful. Iblis' immunity will be not as effective, and resistance will also be halved. Thus, the orb will affect both of the properties.

I thought you were implying that Duvalier could do damage normally, and no one else, but the orb would change that.

Quote from: The Holy namelesskitty on September 06, 2010, 07:21:34 PM
Nay, bacause an orb will have a very hard time protecting you physically, as for the other, it just gives me a sense that even though it sounds good it will not go over well.

I don't know which orb you are talking about, becuase your reasoning wouldn't make sense for either orb.  Which doesn't protect physically and which orb "will not go over well".

@ im2smart4u

In reference to the mental orb, I had been saying that I personally did not have a use for it, and that based solely on my own judgement, I would not have used the orb in-game. The people that want the orb in the game can vote for themselves. What if everyone voted yes because they thought everyone else was voting yes, not because they personally liked the idea.

Quote

Quote from: Duckling on September 06, 2010, 08:15:30 PMIn reference to the mental orb, I had been saying that I personally did not have a use for it, and that based solely on my own judgement, I would not have used the orb in-game. The people that want the orb in the game can vote for themselves.

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 06, 2010, 07:24:05 PMYou said how you see how other people could use the orb, but since you couldn't use it yourself, then you didn't want it in the game.

As you can see, I know what you met.  You don't think it is a bad idea, but you don't see yourself ever using it.  Therefore, you vote nay.

I have a solution for the elmental reduction thingy orb.  Why don't we just ignore immunities, because immunities are too perfect for the orb to find imperfections in.  It would be much simpler, if the orb only effected resistances.

Sounds good. I guess I'll just have to add a teammate to play the Bandit Stronghold battle with. Until he learns Knife.

About the elemental resistance reduction orb.
You mean like disabling all resistances (0%) or still reducing them to 25%?

I think it's the 25% one.

What about an orb that increases Duvalier's Sight, meaning that it's easier for him to see in detail more of the enemies' weaknesses and pass that information to his teammates, thereby allowing everybody to deal 10% more damage on all the attacks.

Quote from: im2smart4u on September 06, 2010, 06:45:59 PM
Mental Resistance vote
"Nay"
*Duckling
*Cypher
*The Holy namelesskitty

"Yay"
*KZ
*MikeW781
*Ertxiem
*im2smart4u
*Zackirus
*bugfartboy

Does anyone want to add or change their vote?

Is this good enough to formulate?
There are only three who oppose it.  Duckling doesn't dislike the idea, but he doesn't see himself using it, so I wouldn't consider him strongly opposing it.  Cypher (or whatever his new name is) has yet to explain his reasoning behind naying the orb, so it is impossible to be sure where he stands.  I don't understand what The Holy namelesskitty's reasons are due to his unclear explanation.

Do you know exactly what the artist formerly known as bugfartboy's reasons are for yay-saying?

1. It's APoC now.
2. What am I yay-saying?
3. Why am I an artist?

That would be mental resistance, bugfartboy.

Ok, right now it's 6 "yays", two of them quite lukewarm, versus 3 "nays", just barely on the line for cutting it in- there is quite a large nay minority. I'll add it to formulated.


Now, can all kindly and clearly vote on the issue of the immunity/resistance orb please?
Personally, I would find the orb much more useful/powerful if it affected immunities as well as resistances- for resistances you deal damage to an enemy anyway, but there are some battles in TPA2 where a certain immunity would mean that some teams were not able to beat a single enemy and required special teammates! Thus, I strongly oppose the idea of dropping immunities (although it is a rather neat solution to the problem, im2smart4u), and try to decide whether we should include inanimate objects on the list of things whose immunities are reduced to resistance status by he orb's effects (for Duvalier only).

I don't really like an idea of an orb which affects teammates as well as Duvalier, Ert- sorry about that, but it's  a "nay" from me.

I vote yay for mental resistance because I think it might be nice to complete the set. And Ert got the idea for that orb from a post of mine in new attacks for teammates. It was originally an idea for Luca that would temporarily boost all team mates max health for one turn.

The weakening immunity/resistance orb has (another) lukewarm yay from me.
To me, the version that would make it easier to code is the one that affects everything (enemies and objects) in the same way. The version that makes more sense from a physical point of view is the one that keeps all immunities intact (and it's still easier to code). But, either way, it's up to Craig to decide what and how things are.

I was thinking about the Sight increase orb and remembered that their effects are achievable with training anyway, so I say nay. Perhaps if the attack bonus was higher (perhaps +20%) it was more interesting to have... but I'm not too enthusiastic about it...

What about the original idea about it upping max and current defense by a small amount for a turn?

I have a solution for the elemental reduction orb.  Why don't we just ignore immunities, because immunities are too perfect for the orb to find imperfections in.  It would be much simpler, if the orb only effected resistances.

im2smart4u- you already wrote exactly the same on the previous page.
See previous page for counter-arguments.

Not sure about that idea, APoC or bugfartboy.

Quote from: KZ on September 07, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
im2smart4u- you already wrote exactly the same on the previous page.

Yes, but I didn't think anyone but you read it and gave it serous thought.

Quote from: KZ on September 07, 2010, 05:03:19 PM
Personally, I would find the orb much more useful/powerful if it affected immunities as well as resistances- for resistances you deal damage to an enemy anyway, but there are some battles in TPA2 where a certain immunity would mean that some teams were not able to beat a single enemy and required special teammates! Thus, I strongly oppose the idea of dropping immunities (although it is a rather neat solution to the problem, im2smart4u), and try to decide whether we should include inanimate objects on the list of things whose immunities are reduced to resistance status by he orb's effects (for Duvalier only).

This isn't TPA2.  You don't pick your team.  Your team will have every "special temmates" necessary to fight any enemy, because the team is already premade for you.  Plus, it doesn't sit right with me to use mind attacks on mindless objects.

I moved the discussion about the mental attacks to TSoG > Mental attacks (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=684.0).

Inanimate objects have no minds and some spirits have perfect resilience to physical attacks.  The orb shouldn't be able to effect these flawless immunities.

Well, the only character who'll use the orb is Duvalier, and he can do something Psy-related with the knife to make it do damage to the ghost.

And he wouldn't really use Knife much on ghosts anyway, when he could be doing something much more devastating.

Can I attempt a revision at an orb? Two orbs to be exact. The blood orb and the violet orb. Both give a 15 point boost in their appropriate categories. But 15 isn't much after a while. What if they increased your health/psy points by 25% rounded? That way it would grow in power as you do.

Your suggestion is too powerful.  After some time, if the blood or violet orb become less useful, then you can switch them for different, more usefull orbs.

Alright. What if the raise was lowered? 25% was just really an example. It could be 10%. And why should two orbs be just useful for a while. Would you continue to use the yellow orb after your psi power reaches a certain level?

Quote from: Bugfartboy on November 03, 2010, 04:34:29 PM
Would you continue to use the yellow orb after your psi power reaches a certain level?

If use don't need the extra PsP, then you can use an orb that gives you a diffrent bonus instead.

I was merely asking if an orb good only for a short time was really worth putting in game. If you alter the increase into a formula, it would remain useful for considerably longer.