Spinning off from here (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=41.0) and following a similar discussion on the old forums, I'd like to start off a topic on attack analysis and classification. Share your thoughts on pros and cons of each attack, the good combinations to use them in, and how they can develop. Which attack can develop from which (this is to keep in the angle about the new proposed her skill system where the player may wish to skip certain attacks in order to save gold and specialize the Hero in different ways- like learning all Shields, or all offensive attacks, or use Feedback & Vengeance for assassin-style Hero), etc, etc. For instance, compare and contrast the elemental area attacks, or the 2-tile damage attacks like split shot, or related attacks, etc.
As an aside, the mechanics of almost all of the attacks were discussed and formulated on the old forums.
Ok, I'm going to go through a few attacks and say the pros and cons:
Pyro Hail-Both
Pros
1) Can hit around corners with going actualy around the corner.
2) Can hit 3 tiles away.
Con
Not very powerful
Cyro Cross-Both
Pros
1) Useful if surronded.
2) Can get you out of corners.
3) Slightly more powerful than Cyro Blast at low levels.
Con
Very small range.
Light Bomb-Offense
Pros
1) Incredible range/radius
2) Decent Damage
Cons
1) No use if surronded
2) Uses tons of Psy Points
Dark Vortex-Both
Pros
1) Good radius
2) Can hit Golems from safe distance
Con
Not very powerful
Vengeance-Defence
Pros
1) Heals you
2) Better than normal range
3) Can hit tile in front of you
4) Can return damage if lots is dealt to you
Cons
1) Defence is the damage (Pro or Con, your choice)
2) No damage if not hurt
3) Expensive to buy (TPA2 and TSoG)
Edit: Exteriems request, added Vengeance. Also added wether offense or defense (my opinions).
I find cryo cross more useful because I lead the charge with my main and the swordsman can't remember his name so my main tends to get surrounded so he has cryo cross and then the swordsman has slash.
I usually get my main to have light based abilities because I don't like to charge with my main. I liketo use my swordsmen, archer, spearman, and my other units to charge to enemies and use my main's light bomb to destroy most of the enemies that are left. I then use my spirt to give main more PsP so he cab attack the next turn with light bomb again
I prefer cryo cross because I like to make god-like characters and lay waste to all opposition that think of themselves so highly to call themselves brutal. I love to charge into a massive group of enemies with one character as smite them with one mighty blow. Cryo cross is the perfect attack for me in that instance, but I can see where, if the main were more held back and defended, then light bomb and the others would be a good idea.
also personally, I just love winter, so cold is naturally my favored element.
god of the ice huh catchy if a bit of a flashy title.
Also having an affinity towards cold is aesthetically please since you are going directly against Yawah who sends his fires of vengeance down upon the unbelievers.
yep there's no burning this infidel.
Interesting that Cryo Cross is mentioned here in a very offensive way, as I often, if I choose Cold, prefer to use it in a defensive formation, allowing the enemy to come close, draw them around the Hero, then annihilate them. However, I do have preference for Light Bomb, as I can then deal an all-offensive, straight from the spot, highly penetrating blow into the enemy formations (try battle 1 of mission 3 in TSoG- you can get all 9 enemies with one Light Bomb).
I find the least practical to be pyro-hail, as it covers the least spaces and has the same reach as Dark Vortex- the only advantage I see to it is the relatively low cost. Still, if one looks at the tiles covered:cost ratio, I am not convinced that this is the best you can get. Dark Vortex is pretty good, as it has good reach and can be used even when the Hero is surrounded, though the soct is starting to get on the high side. Light Bomb is excellent, but has the major weakness of being useless when cornered, and having the highest cost of all- almost a third more expensive than Cryo Cross or Pyro Hail. Cryo Cross covers maximum number of tiles, but has low reach and is the most likely to require a Hero with high hp, as this is one very close-quarters combat attack. Another disadvantage is that you really cannot reach any annoying support units with it, whilst you can do so with Light Bomb (and without exposing the Hero to the enemy as much).
I think when using both the cryo cross and light bomb it's a either you know how to use them or you don't and if you don't but try to use them it ends badly, it takes a bit of practice with them or any of them to get how to use them, for me it just boils down to preference.
Another issue is the friendly fire option.
Are your evaluation the same if friendly fire is on? I like to play like that. It's more fair.
I think that cryo cross may be the worst attack in these conditions.
The way I see it, pyro hail is too similar to vengeance to be useful.
The best ones are dark vortex and light bomb. I prefer the long range attack, using the tanks in my team to hold the enemy in position and Rahel and Luca to get rid of the left overs.
By the way, what about vengeance vs each of the 4 elemental attacks.
Vengeance costs the least PsP and affects only 3 tiles, but you recover health. If you have a choking point in the map, it may be the best attack you have.
Vengeance is very useful when dealing with over powered bosses. It allows me to return the massive damage the bosses rain down on me, and you can use it a lot. It helped me take out Nelis.
I like to use Cyro Cross with Vengence, the green orb, crimson orb, violet orb, and yellow orb.
I use the green orb to get to the middle of the enemys, cyro cross. Then I know I can survive thanks to the crimson orb. With the violet orb I can use cyro cross a few times per go. Vengence lets me stay longer by healing me. Lastly, the yellow orb lets me do the dame strategy about 5 time per battle.
Cryo Cross is really only useful when you are surrounded.
Light Bomb is by far the most useful ability so far. The enemies in Mission 3 are clumped together. In Part 1, you can take out almost all the Mechanics by using Griffin, Rahel, and Light Bomb. In Part 2, the long range is extremely welcome for killing Swordsmen, Energy Golems, and Bowmen. In Part 3, Light Bomb destroys the Energy Golems, Mechanics, and badly damages Fernatus while you stay in the vicinity of two squares across the chasm.
About Vengeance: it's very good, it's certainly one of my favourite attacks for TRPG2,but it does have an inherent flaw- initially it's a purely defensive attack, as the Hero has to take damage from the enemy, so the enemy has the first go. With elemental attacks, you don't have to expose, and therefore, evaluate and risk the Hero as much.
Which is why it's such a good combination with cryo cross. Any damage you recieve from any surviving enemies can be sucked right out of them. Often times quickly finishing them off. This allows for quite a few battles to be ended in very few turns with little PSP cost. And since all the enemies are usually focused on the main, little danger of losing a teammate.
hmm it's weird before reading KZ post I never thought of using cryo cross defensively I bet when it was created it was meant to be defensive.
Not necessarily: after all, these are inherently offensive attacks. But then, people adopt them to quite different uses: Vengeance seems like an initially defensive attack, yet many here use it for offensive purposes.
It's all based on your strategy. ^^ Really no strategy is better than the other, whichever gets the job done is a good strategy. like Paper, rock, scissors. My strategy would be great in a certain situation where another's would fail, but in a situation in which their's would be perfect mine could fail.
I always thought a good strategy was an adaptive strategy, but you really can't change your moves from light bomb to cyro cross. I normally stick with cyro cross since it does the most damage and hits the most squares. I just get in close and have a healer use long shield if I need it.
'Tis evident that your attack selection will depend on your strategy. However, given the number of slots we have for TSoG Hero, we can truly specialize him now, and then select different attack combinations for each mission- then the adaptive part comes into play.
In some battles I prefer to lure the enemy in, then pound them with troops, other times I go for one bit at-a-time, stripping the boss of reinforcements. And sometimes I go for all-plugs-pulled attack.
In any case, Light Bomb is the one I do like the most, coupled with Vengenace to back it up. But then Cryo Cross requires finesse of style, a challenge to set up the enemy in just the right fashion so that the Hero does the most damage: and that is also rather appealing.
Is there anyone who likes Pyro Hail most? The cheapest of them all?
Or Dark Vortex?
I agree with yogc an adaptive strategy is best after all no plan survives confronting the enemy.
The skills i use(note i play with friendly fire on)
Mind Blast-Essencial skill,low cost and if trained good damage.
Big Shield-Also essencial if you are a (Berserker) because it can heal you and team.
Cryo/Pyro/Light/Dark Blast-Essencial,no words!
Cryo Cross-Good and awesome(not wen Friendly Fire is on)
Pyro Hail-Awesome with Friendly Fire on and can hit corners(But without Friendly fire its weak)
Light Bomb-Good for a long range pwnage.
Dark Vortex-Most Offensive,use it at cost of geting hit!
Feedback-Mini-Vengeance for wen not enough PP.
Vengeance-Awesome for the*Thanks for the present here take one to*hit!
And this is wath i mostly use!!!!My favourite is Pyro Hail cuz low cost,low damage but:)Constant casting on jultyple enemies makes them French Cheese!
wut
The only options, so far, are basically Cryo Cross and Light Bomb, seeing as long as they are there there isn't much reason to get Pyro Hail/Dark Vortex.
Btw, Light Bomb is the least damaging of the four. Cross and Hail do the most damage.
Well, for Dark Vortex you get an attack that can allow the Hero to strike the enemy down even if cornered, it costs less (and those 2PsP points can make quite a difference), hits the same number of tiles, allows the Hero to attack unit formations from any side of the map with ease. (Say, if the enemy comes up too close, and the Hero is located on the side of a map, then the enemy will be out of Light Bomb range- great example is Dean Lucas from TRPG2 battle.) Also, the attack deals more damage on the same level.
About Pyro Hail I do agree completely, though. I am hard pressed to find any advatantages to it that one cannot find in better form with all the other attacks. After all, if, for instance, you want more reach, than it's better than Cryo Cross, but it costs almost the same, yet hits only 5 tiles to Cryo Cross' 12. Better go for Dark Vortex then, with 4 PsP more cost, it covers 9 tiles and can damage many more combinations of enemy formations. And if you want to go cheap, then Dark Vortex may be too expensive, but Cryo Cross costs only 1 PsP more and covers more than twice the area! Either way, there is always a better alternative, in my opinion.
Here is a challenge: can anyone come up with a very good reason or a good battlefield situation where Pyro Hail can be often and frequently used in prefernce to the other 3 attacks?
I really think that Pyro Hail is in a transient class of it's own: it's more advanced than the Elemental Breaths, but it's lower class than the other 3 elemental area attacks. The Heat equivalent would be Fire Gate, which has range exactly between Dark Vortex and Light Bomb.
Looking at the stats in the wiki, it seems to me that pyro hail has a lower rate of increase of damage when used, when comparing it with cryo cross thus making it even less appealing to use 12 PsP.