I think building the Islamic cultural center so close to ground zero is insensitive. Since the building will upset 9/11 families by reminding them of the motivation of the terrorist attacks, the location of the building needs to moved. Even if the building should be moved for moral reasons, I don't think any part of the government has the right to force them to move. The first admendment is pretty clear about freedom of religion, so the city, state, and federal government needs leave the mosque alone. The people in charge of the project, not the government, need to sympathies with the 9/11 and move the center to a less controversial area instead of trying to make a political statement.
I do agree the project should be halted untill we find the source of the center's funding. There is almost no domestic funding for the Islamic center and most of the money comes from countries like Saudi Arabia (which 15 of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers come from). The project should be halted until it can be proven that the center isn't being funded by people who will use it to recruit people like Faisal Shahzad.
The uproar over its location seems rather overblown to me. The building they're using is just an old, boarded-up Burlington Coat Factory. Also, there is already an actual mosque (http://www.npr.org/blogs/watchingwashington/2010/08/20/129319446/) right nearby that has been there since long before 9/11.
Besides, it's not like they're building a monument to radical Islam there. Imam Rauf (the guy behind the center) has long been dedicated to improving relations between the West and moderate Muslims around the world. That's the whole point behind the center. We shouldn't make the mistake of conflating violent radical muslims with all muslims.
Quote from: CraigStern on September 23, 2010, 08:56:44 PMBesides, it's not like they're building a monument to radical Islam there. Imam Rauf (the guy behind the center) has long been dedicated to improving relations between the West and moderate Muslims around the world. That's the whole point behind the center. We shouldn't make the mistake of conflating violent radical muslims with all muslims.
I personally don't have a problem with it, but since many of the 9/11 families are upset by it, then the respectful action woud be to move it. Would you build a German pride museum next to Mittelbau-Dora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelbau-Dora)? Not all Germans were Nazis, so would it be okay to build that there?
You never did comment about the funding.
IT'S NOT A MOSQUE!!!!!! every time I hear anyone say that I want to scream, a prayer room the size of a small room is not the same. It's not only a sign of prejudice induced by fake Muslim assholes, it's unconstitutional to deny anyone the right to worship their deity, which I might add, is almost exactly the same as all Abrahamic religious deities, this is like the Skokie case except, more prejudiced, and less of a real threat. That land was bought fairly, it's just wrong to deny Islamic communities their rights due to the actions of some drug addicted idiots. lastly the prayer room will be two friggin blocks from ground zero. were this a church and Christians who committed the atrocity on September eleventh everyone would be donating land in the name of peace, This is just a case of extreme xenophobia. other relegions have faced the same when entering America, but are now just another face in the crowd, this will eventually hammen to Muslims, but how soon? That is why this should be done, to advance our progress as a country.
The Muslims here have no connections to Muslims lead by a radical leader, other than a small similarity in religion. If an aeitheist went on a killing rampage (which happens quite often, I might add), would I not be allowed my right to free speech so I could speak out against the prejudice of the religious on the aetheists, calling us "godless radical liberal psychopaths unable accept the idea of community that are also damn Commies that want to take the joy, hope, and in fact, all emotions out of everything American"? 'Cause that's what they call us. And I say 1st amendment rights rule.
If there is already a Mosque there, why build another one? HUMMM?
Because this is a community center with a prayer room. It just happens to have a prayer room.
A mosque is "a building used for public worship by Muslims". Since the prayer room is built for muslims to worship, then it might as well be called a "mosque". In case you haven't noticed, no one has denied the center from being built. To build or not to build is a decision left to the people running the project. I don't care what religion the terrorist are, but every American needs to respect the feelings of the 9/11 families. What pisses me off is that the people building the project don't care about the 9/11 famliles' feelings and would rather make a political statement, then be sensitive to grieving families.
A founding member of the Center for Islamic Pluralism, Zuhdi Jasser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuhdi_Jasser), who is also the founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, a group of Muslim professionals in the Phoenix Valley of Arizona, strongly opposed the mosque, said,
Quote"For us, a mosque was always a place to pray...—not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement. Ground Zero shouldn't be about promoting Islam. It's the place where war was declared on us as Americans."
He also said,
Quote"American freedom of religion is a right, but ... it is not right to make one's religion a global political statement with a towering Islamic edifice that casts a shadow over the memorials of Ground Zero. ... Islamists in 'moderate' disguise are still Islamists. In their own more subtle ways, the WTC mosque organizers end up serving the same aims (as) separatist and supremacist wings of political Islam."
Good for him. Ground Zero isn't about promoting Islam. Two blocks north is about promoting Islam. There is ALREADY A "MOSQUE" THERE!! I really don't give a rat's furry about the grieving families. Shakespeare: Something along the lines of -- if you're still grieving after more than 3 months, you're fixating. I just can't find the quote right now.
We're the ones making the scene by revving up the debate, saying OMG THERE'Z TERRORISTS!!
If the "mosque" is to the North, it won't be casting a shadow on Ground Zero.
If you don't give his reasons for saying that the "WTC organizers" are "serving the same aims as separatist and supremacist wings of political Islam".
They're not interested in killing people, and they're not interested in enforcing religious domination on the United States; we wouldn't allow that.
What your idea is like is the idea that Germans shouldn't be able to make architectural statements in Jewish communities or near families who've had members survive or not survive concentration campts. Just because they'd want to make a German architecture piece does NOT mean that they're serving the same ends as the Nazis.
I'm afraid you misunderstand, the community center will go as planned, despite your ill informed ramblings, perhaps that leader may have said some things, but Islam is a misunderstood faith, think of is as christianity with a few idiot nutballs who screw everything up for the rest of us.
How do you know of this though? How is it that many countries in the East have been over run by them? That doesn't seem very peaceful.
so are you saying that Islam is dangerous, or are people dangerous?
I'm saying it CAN be dangerous.
so can all relegions, would you give up Christianity because of that stupid idiot who said he would burn the Qu'ran?
1)No.
2)That made no logical sense.
3)I'm pulling out of this for now.
1) so is that any different?
2) yes it is
3) fine by me
We ARE a bunch of xenophobes.
Quote from: Duckling on September 24, 2010, 09:13:37 PMI really don't give a rat's furry about the grieving families.
I am guessing that you share the same emotional insensitivity as the selfish jerks building the center.
Not to be off topic but he can be pretty insensitive.
I'm not understanding this completely, you think the Islams are trying to make grieving families get angry and sadder because their Mosque just happens to be near something that the radical faction of Islams did out of misguided worship of their god(s)? I think we should drop this, the Islams aren't trying to hurt anyone, except those radicals, they are just too devoted to their religion, so they believe in some things that they shouldn't be.
Emotional insensitivity? The building is only in the vague area of ground zero, and Mc Donalds has hurt many people, I know that there's no proof but due to the amount of cholesterol in those burgers it must have quite a bit of an impact, and there's one on practically every block, but you give no thought to that at all. Is that somehow different? This is just media propaganda that's making everyone afraid, on TV you hear about terrorists, not people who each year give ten percent of their income and fast for thirty days a year to sympathize better with poorer people and Remind them that they are people too. Those people are the real Muslims.
Quote from: The Holy namelesskitty on September 25, 2010, 06:11:09 PM
Emotional insensitivity? The building is only in the vague area of ground zero, and Mc Donalds has hurt many people, I know that there's no proof but due to the amount of cholesterol in those burgers it must have quite a bit of an impact, and there's one on practically every block, but you give no thought to that at all. Is that somehow different? This is just media propaganda that's making everyone afraid, on TV you hear about terrorists, not people who each year give ten percent of their income and fast for thirty days a year to sympathize better with poorer people and Remind them that they are people too. Those people are the real Muslims.
I think it would be fair to say that the terrorist bombings of 9/11 are quite different from McDonalds, as McDonalds is just a restaurant business trying to earn lots of money by selling cheap, high-cholesterol food, but those particular radicals of 9/11 were trying to do something which is not clear to me for their god(s) by crashing air planes into skyscrapers. I'm not saying that they were trying to hurt people, but I'm not entirely sure that they weren't, so yes, McDonalds and 9/11 are two very different things, but regular Islams/Muslims are, just like us, regular people, just with a different set of beliefs, and we shouldn't look down on the entire race because of one incident that probably was not supported by the majority of them. So I don't think you gave a fair comparison, and the McDonalds vs. 9/11 point really never stood a chance in my opinion, but I'm with you 100% on the last point about Muslims being people with rights too.
Yeah I think that was stupid too, but I was hungry.
Quote from: Duskling on September 25, 2010, 06:03:53 PM
I'm not understanding this completely, you think the Islams are trying to make grieving families get angry and sadder because their Mosque just happens to be near something that the radical faction of Islams did out of misguided worship of their god(s)?
The goal of the project isn't to upset the grieving 9/11 families. The issue is that they know the project wil upset 9/11 families and they don't care. They are willing to distress thousands of fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wifes, sons, daughters, and friends who lost love ones, just to make a political statement.
Quote from: The Holy namelesskitty on September 25, 2010, 06:11:09 PM
Emotional insensitivity? The building is only in the vague area of ground zero, and Mc Donalds has hurt many people, I know that there's no proof but due to the amount of cholesterol in those burgers it must have quite a bit of an impact, and there's one on practically every block, but you give no thought to that at all. Is that somehow different?
WHAT IS FUCKING WRONG WITH YOU! Do you not realize what it is like to have a family member of yours murdered. To have a loved one there during one moment and gone the next, because their life was an obstacle to a murder's goals. If I could, I would punch you right now for downplaying the murder of about 3,000 people by comparing it to McDonalds giving some people with free will the option of eating themselves to death.
I have to agree with im2smart4u on this.[spoiler]I'm sorry. I just have to shudder. I never though those words should come from my digital mouth.[/spoiler] It's insensitive. And nameless did not just make a bad comparison but instead an insensitive comparison just because he's hungry. I implie the first sentence im2smart4u used in his previous post.
Don't you think for ONE MOMENT that I don't know what it's like to lose a loved one. But I understand that not all of what killed my loved one was bad. The 9/11 families should too. And some of them HAVE! You're over generalizing, saying "the 9/11 families" as a general whole, tyring to make it look like you're the great speaker for those that have lost loved ones. But you're not. You are just an ill-informed blaggart furthering the goals of those who would see America become a nation of shunning. The "extremists" were not Islam. They may say they were, but they weren't. And many of the "9/11 families" are actually supporting the Islamic community center. They think it is a good chance for healing the cultural rifts caused by the despicable, low-down scum of the earth that suicide-bombed the Trade Center, and you're saying you'd like to stand in the way.
I really don't think you know what you are talking about. I live by this:
Quote from: Proverbs 10:18
Whoever hides hatred has lying lips,
And whoever spreads slander is a fool.
A lot of what you just said was slander. I really don't care if I'm a
Quote from: Duckling on September 26, 2010, 03:22:30 PM
ill-informed blaggart furthering the goals of those who would see America become a nation of shunning.
You claim to know what you are talking about when you don't and try to hide the fact by insulting us.
nonono, I didn't mean you; I meant im2smart4u. If you choose to associate yourself with him, and thus my label (or as you say, libel) unto him, go on right ahead. But let it not be said that I directly called the fartboy of bugs "an ill-imformed blaggart".
Quote from: Duckling on September 26, 2010, 03:22:30 PMDon't you think for ONE MOMENT that I don't know what it's like to lose a loved one. But I understand that not all of what killed my loved one was bad. The 9/11 families should too. And some of them HAVE! You're over generalizing, saying "the 9/11 families" as a general whole, tyring to make it look like you're the great speaker for those that have lost loved ones. But you're not. You are just an ill-informed blaggart furthering the goals of those who would see America become a nation of shunning. The "extremists" were not Islam. They may say they were, but they weren't. And many of the "9/11 families" are actually supporting the Islamic community center. They think it is a good chance for healing the cultural rifts caused by the despicable, low-down scum of the earth that suicide-bombed the Trade Center, and you're saying you'd like to stand in the way.
Don't call me "ill-informed". You are the dumbass who repeatedly calls muslims "Islams". People who are adherent of the religion of Islam are called "muslims".
Yes, some of the 9/11 families support the center and that is good thing, but the majority of the 9/11 families don't want to see any reminder of the murder of thier loved ones. You need to develop empathy, so you can stop acting like an insensitive bastard. What kind of jerk implies grieving families need to 'just get over it'.
Quote from: Bugfartboy on September 26, 2010, 03:40:58 PMI really don't think you know what you are talking about. I live by this:Quote from: Proverbs 10:18Whoever hides hatred has lying lips,
And whoever spreads slander is a fool.
A lot of what you just said was slander. I really don't care if I'm a Quote from: Duckling on September 26, 2010, 03:22:30 PM
ill-informed blaggart furthering the goals of those who would see America become a nation of shunning.
You claim to know what you are talking about when you don't and try to hide the fact by insulting us.
Since he is writing, he would be guilty of libel. He has lost any reasonable arguement, so he reverted to defamation
All right, this is devolving into a morass of personal attacks. I understand that this is an emotional topic for some of us, but curse words and personal insults do not belong on these forums.
Thread locked.