The Sinister Design Forums

Games => TSoG => Topic started by: Steelfist on February 27, 2012, 11:13:14 AM

Title: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on February 27, 2012, 11:13:14 AM
Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.

Edit: This is a split topic. It may also be interesting to take a look at the Revival by Nelis (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=141.msg1225#msg1225) thread. Ert.
Title: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on February 27, 2012, 02:02:36 PM
When it comes to reviving dead teammates, Duvalier does more then Luca.  Luca does soul suck and hold soul charges, but Duvalier is the one who does all of the reviving (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.0).
Title: Revival
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 27, 2012, 02:15:42 PM
That is an inaccurate statement. Luca is the one who has more power -- the amount of energy it would take to bring back the dead is immense. Duvalier just keeps a reign on that energy after she releases it and makes sure it "fits" into the mind being revived.

Also, what, are we supposed to not feel any emotion in the scene where Luca fights so hard to free her husband only to find he doesn't even remember her? Who cares, right? She's just a soulless construct, she doesn't actually have any real feelings or personality.

Alright, a compromise, then: Perhaps some spirits really are the minds of the dead, while some are formed from thought impressions.

I still think that Iblis isn't a construct though. His tale is vague in places, but he was very terse and didn't take the time to explain a lot of things. He sounded like he knew more than he said, he just didn't bother to tell Duvalier. And it is remarkably specific compared to the other spirits we see. There are just too many complexities to account for him being a figment of peoples' imaginations.

Also, re: the bandits thing: he's pretty deep in the cavern, and the scorpions probably menaced the bandits as well. It's probable that the bandits simply never got that deep.
Title: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on February 27, 2012, 02:38:43 PM
That is an inaccurate statement. Luca is the one who has more power -- the amount of energy it would take to bring back the dead is immense. Duvalier just keeps a reign on that energy after she releases it and makes sure it "fits" into the mind being revived.
That is an inaccurate statement.  There is nothing that says that reviving requires immense amount of energy or that Luca is using more psy energy than Duvalier.  We do know that Duvalier said "This is the difficult part" when he was about to start his part of reviving.

Also, what, are we supposed to not feel any emotion in the scene where Luca fights so hard to free her husband only to find he doesn't even remember her? Who cares, right? She's just a soulless construct, she doesn't actually have any real feelings or personality.
You were suppose to feel emotions at that point, because Craig cleverly didn't reveal what spirits really were untill late in the game.  Plus, to Luca, they are real emotions.

Alright, a compromise, then: Perhaps some spirits really are the minds of the dead, while some are formed from thought impressions.
I respectfully disagree

I still think that Iblis isn't a construct though. His tale is vague in places, but he was very terse and didn't take the time to explain a lot of things. He sounded like he knew more than he said, he just didn't bother to tell Duvalier. And it is remarkably specific compared to the other spirits we see. There are just too many complexities to account for him being a figment of peoples' imaginations.
You claim that Iblis seems to have a lot to say, yet he didn't say a lot.  Maybe Iblis didn't have a lot to say, because he has no real past to talk about.
Title: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on February 28, 2012, 10:38:26 AM
While I can't argue with much of your last post, I can argue with this:

That is an inaccurate statement. Luca is the one who has more power -- the amount of energy it would take to bring back the dead is immense. Duvalier just keeps a reign on that energy after she releases it and makes sure it "fits" into the mind being revived.
That is an inaccurate statement.  There is nothing that says that reviving requires immense amount of energy or that Luca is using more psy energy than Duvalier.  We do know that Duvalier said "This is the difficult part" when he was about to start his part of reviving.

That may be an innacurate statement. The difficult part was almost certainly referring to the difficult part for Duvalier. The only part for Duvalier. Manipulating this energy and storing it is probably difficult, if Duvalier struggles to mould it into the correct shape. And the energy was 'constantly looking for avenues of escape' -aand DUvalier found holding it difficult. So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating. I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
Title: Revival
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 28, 2012, 01:06:16 PM
Yes. Shaping the energy is the "hard part" because it requires finesse and concentration. Luca is the one who actually provides the energy, however. In terms of raw power, Luca is the greater entity there. The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
Title: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on February 28, 2012, 02:03:24 PM
So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating.
Luca meditates alone in her corner, because meditating helps her grieve alone and remember her name.  Luca also meditates when she doesn't have any soul charges, so she isn't meditating to hold soul charges insider her.

I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.

The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
I don't recall that.  When does the game describe a soul charge?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Ertxiem on February 28, 2012, 05:29:23 PM
I added a reference to the Revival by Nelis (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=141.msg1225#msg1225) thread in the opening post of this newly created thread.
In there there are some interesting points that may be shared here, in particular the body - how much damaged can it be and still be revived.
And something else into the Revival by Nelis (mixing old and new ideas): the main was crucial because it was he who "kept" the best mind impressions of the teammates. These would be read by Nelis to be used in the revival process.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on February 29, 2012, 10:09:27 AM
So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating.
Luca meditates alone in her corner, because meditating helps her grieve alone and remember her name.  Luca also meditates when she doesn't have any soul charges, so she isn't meditating to hold soul charges insider her.

True, true - but then, I only said part of the reason. Obviously, she may meditate for other reasons, but it is entirely possible that a contributing factor is sometimes controlling soul charges.

I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.

I directly quoted the passage that led me to this conclusion, and yet you cannot understand how I came to it? Leaving aside the question of whether you do any more than skim-read posts for the salient points, I'll explain. Maybe I was more unclear than I realised.
The energy, when Duvalier moulded it, was difficult to control as it was (Direct Quote ->) 'Struggling and looking for avenues of escape'. So, I surmised that if it were difficult to hold and control in the 'short struggle' for Duvalier, holding and controlling it for a much longer period of time before reviving a teammate would be much more so. One point I may have to clear up; by 'process' I referred to the entire process of storage and use, not just the moment in which the revive took place.

The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
I don't recall that.  When does the game describe a soul charge?

I believe Chocobo_Fan is referring to the fact that, when Luca lays a hand on Griffin, you feel a 'great force' flowing from her into him.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on February 29, 2012, 01:07:05 PM
So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating.
Luca meditates alone in her corner, because meditating helps her grieve alone and remember her name.  Luca also meditates when she doesn't have any soul charges, so she isn't meditating to hold soul charges insider her.
True, true - but then, I only said part of the reason. Obviously, she may meditate for other reasons, but it is entirely possible that a contributing factor is sometimes controlling soul charges.
Your argument is that there is no proof that she isn't meditating to help her hold in soul charges.  With that logic, she could be meditating to have constant contact with Santa Clause.  You can't prove that she isn't contacting Santa, so it must be true.

I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.
I was more unclear than I realised.
The energy, when Duvalier moulded it, was difficult to control as it was (Direct Quote ->) 'Struggling and looking for avenues of escape'. So, I surmised that if it were difficult to hold and control in the 'short struggle' for Duvalier, holding and controlling it for a much longer period of time before reviving a teammate would be much more so. One point I may have to clear up; by 'process' I referred to the entire process of storage and use, not just the moment in which the revive took place.
(Direct Quote ->) "It's like forcing wet plaster to fill a series of crevices with your hands.  Little dribbles slip between your fingers, trying to escape."  You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.  The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.  Dumping a bucket of wet plaster on a crevice is easy, while making the plaster fit into all the crevices in the hard part. Since Luca can hold an almost infinite number of soul charges in herself, she obviously doesn't have an issue fitting them in herself.

The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
I don't recall that.  When does the game describe a soul charge?
I believe Chocobo_Fan is referring to the fact that, when Luca lays a hand on Griffin, you feel a 'great force' flowing from her into him.
I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 29, 2012, 03:08:13 PM
Quote
I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.
...Except I did present it as fact? I was citing my source. I'm really confused by what you're talking about. Are you admitting that my theory is right if that piece of supporting evidence is fact?

Quote
You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.
...Is it too much to ask that we don't resort to flinging accusations, please? Let's keep things civil here.

Quote
The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.  Dumping a bucket of wet plaster on a crevice is easy, while making the plaster fit into all the crevices in the hard part. Since Luca can hold an almost infinite number of soul charges in herself, she obviously doesn't have an issue fitting them in herself.
I refer you to my previous posts. Molding the energy requires finesse, but Luca has (or holds) more raw power. Duvalier may be capable of doing something she can't, but only because he has more knowledge regarding the target of the soul charge. She is still higher than him in terms of an absolute power spectrum. She is capable of extracting and holding multiple soul charges, when Duvalier struggles to contain even a single one. How is Luca capable of doing something Duvalier can't if she's just a figment of his imagination?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on February 29, 2012, 03:25:28 PM
Quote
I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.
...Except I did present it as fact? I was citing my source. I'm really confused by what you're talking about. Are you admitting that my theory is right if that piece of supporting evidence is fact?
If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claim that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did the game say something vastly different and vague like "feels a great force"?

Quote
You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.
...Is it too much to ask that we don't resort to flinging accusations, please? Let's keep things civil here.
How is that uncivil?  It is perfectly reasonable to assume that SteelFist didn't understand the revival description because he is unfamiliar with working with wet plaster.

She is still higher than him in terms of an absolute power spectrum.
Are you honestly telling me that Luca has greater psy power (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Psy_Power) than Duvalier?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on February 29, 2012, 04:22:27 PM
Quote
If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claimed that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like ""as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did it say something vague like it feels like a "great force"?
Um...I was basing my information off of this (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.0). A topic you created. I am curious as to how you are confused when you cited that same post to help your argument earlier in this very thread.

Quote
Are you honestly telling me that Luca has greater psy power than Duvalier?
I direct you to Gameplay and Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation). However, even if we are working within those confines, the psy power stat is not, in fact, the only aspect of a psy's power. Luca has a very specific skill and ability that no other character we've seen is capable of. Perhaps saying that she's higher on an absolute power spectrum is incorrect, but she does have an ability that Duvalier does not and cannot replicate.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on February 29, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
Quote
If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claimed that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like ""as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did it say something vague like it feels like a "great force"?
Um...I was basing my information off of this (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.0). A topic you created. I am curious as to how you are confused when you cited that same post to help your argument earlier in this very thread
I am confused because the topic I created didn't say anything about  a soul charges being "immense torrent of energy" that is "far greater than a normal being could store".  If you want people to take you seriously, then you shouldn't make up information and then pretend like you are directly paraphrasing the game.

Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.
Back on topic:  It shown that Duvalier has more talent then Luca, since he does most of the leg work during the revivial process.  The only techniques that Luca can do that Duvalier can't are techniques that can't be done with a human's composition.  Duvalier can't hold soul charges, steal psy energy, and transfer psy energy, because he lacks Luca's psy energy body.  Duvalier's mind created her to do things that he couldn't do as a human.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on March 01, 2012, 09:53:19 AM
I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.
I was more unclear than I realised.
The energy, when Duvalier moulded it, was difficult to control as it was (Direct Quote ->) 'Struggling and looking for avenues of escape'. So, I surmised that if it were difficult to hold and control in the 'short struggle' for Duvalier, holding and controlling it for a much longer period of time before reviving a teammate would be much more so. One point I may have to clear up; by 'process' I referred to the entire process of storage and use, not just the moment in which the revive took place.
(Direct Quote ->) "It's like forcing wet plaster to fill a series of crevices with your hands.  Little dribbles slip between your fingers, trying to escape."  You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.  The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.

Indeed, I have never worked with plaster. However, neither have I heard of it 'struggling'. The passage insinuates that the energy is somehow alive and attempting to break free - the word it uses; 'looking', it good evidence of this. The 'wet plaster' quote is clearly sperate, as he has not started working with it at this point. So, my surmise that Luca uses more mental strength (Not Psp) appears to reamin intact.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Ertxiem on March 01, 2012, 11:34:44 AM
I would like to discuss what does it mean to be alive, dead and what is to be revived.
In particular, I would like to address the following point in the case that the spirits are creations of psys instead of dead people:
If when people die they can only be revived by a particularly skilled psy, together with some energy from a soul charge, then how is the revived person the same person it was. In my view, I would expect that the psy would mould what he thinks the person is. And his vision could be different from what some of the others see. Furthermore, Duvalier could even feel tempted to change bits of the characteristics he dislikes, and it may even happen that unconsciously he tweaks something. This sort of things would be noticed by others and it would be included in conversation.

This would even allow a malevolent character to create an obedient army. Even if we consider that Nelis revival technique is different from Duvalier and Luca's technique, I think it would be likely that Nelis, during the revival process, tried to mould the revived into her own interests. Furthermore, each revived would be an improved version of the previous revived, not necessarily related to the one being revived at the moment. On the other hand, perhaps Nelis was trying exactly this when the Phantom Armor (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Phantom_Armor_%28Enemy%29) were created. However, we don't have much information about the Phantom Armor. (I assume that they are similar to golems.)

Nevertheless, the existence of spirits would surely make the understanding of revival quite simpler, since what Duvalier and Luca have to do is to heal the dead body and channel the spirit back to it. That would further mean that the revived is who died.

I'm assuming that revival is quite a hard technique, only rarely seen in Cera Bella. It's rare mainly because it's hard for us to benefit from it and the enemies never have that advantage. If it was an easy technique, either Nelis would win any war easily or the Academy could master it too.

Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on March 01, 2012, 01:23:28 PM
If you want people to take you seriously, then you shouldn't make up information and then pretend like you are directly paraphrasing the game.
If you want people to take you seriously, perhaps you should refrain from rudeness and personal accusations. This kind of puerile behavior only serves to discredit your argument.

"You can feel a great force flowing from [Luca] into [Griffin]. You can hear a sound like a towering torrent of water spiraling and sucking down a tiny hole." (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.0)

This was the main passage I was using to make my argument. The description calls the soul charge a "great force" and makes a simile to a "towering torrent of water", which is where I got "great torrent of energy". As for my claim that this is far more energy than a normal being could store, it goes on to describe the torrent of water as "sucking down a tiny hole", implying that a human body has a hard time holding all of it in. (Plus, if we look at this from a biological point of view, the amount of energy needed to jump-start a dead body would be immense -- enough to recharge enough ATP molecules in order to get vital systems running again, and probably a steady supply of additional energy to stabilize it. And that would just result in a vegetable -- Luca's soul charge revitalizes the mind as well.) Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on March 13, 2012, 01:43:31 PM
This would even allow a malevolent character to create an obedient army. Even if we consider that Nelis revival technique is different from Duvalier and Luca's technique, I think it would be likely that Nelis, during the revival process, tried to mould the revived into her own interests. Furthermore, each revived would be an improved version of the previous revived, not necessarily related to the one being revived at the moment. On the other hand, perhaps Nelis was trying exactly this when the Phantom Armor (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Phantom_Armor_%28Enemy%29) were created. However, we don't have much information about the Phantom Armor. (I assume that they are similar to golems.)
I theorize that Phantom Armors aren't real living things.  They are probably are artificial creations like spirits and Cygnus's multiples.

This was the main passage I was using to make my argument. The description calls the soul charge a "great force" and makes a simile to a "towering torrent of water", which is where I got "great torrent of energy". As for my claim that this is far more energy than a normal being could store, it goes on to describe the torrent of water as "sucking down a tiny hole", implying that a human body has a hard time holding all of it in.
The actual quote is "You hear a sound like a towering torrent of water spiraling down into a tiny hole."  Just because something makes the same sound doesn't mean that they work the same way.  Light Blast sounds like a whistle, but I wouldn't theorize that referees use Light Blast during games.

Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?
Okay, look at this way.  I suggested that Luca can only hold soul charges while Duvalier can't because a human's composition is incompatible with holding soul charges.  You believe that Luca is more powerful than Duvalier and that is why she is able to do what Duvalier can't.  If it was true that Luca is so much more powerful than Duvalier, then why doesn't she do all the work in the revival process?  If it is so much easier to fit the soul charge into a person then it is to hold it, then why does Luca need Duvalier for the revival process?  If Luca is so powerful, then why can't she do all the things that Duvaleir can such as elemental blasts, elemental area attacks, and variety of shields?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on March 19, 2012, 02:33:24 PM
Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?
Okay, look at this way.  I suggested that Luca can only hold soul charges while Duvalier can't because a human's composition is incompatible with holding soul charges.  You believe that Luca is more powerful than Duvalier and that is why she is able to do what Duvalier can't.  If it was true that Luca is so much more powerful than Duvalier, then why doesn't she do all the work in the revival process?  If it is so much easier to fit the soul charge into a person then it is to hold it, then why does Luca need Duvalier for the revival process?  If Luca is so powerful, then why can't she do all the things that Duvaleir can such as elemental blasts, elemental area attacks, and variety of shields?

I theorize that Luca uses more mental strength - not PSP - because she is able to contain this struggling energy when Duvalier struggles to fit it - or even hold it himself. I will concede the possibility that Luca is simply more suited to doing this - but if Luca is simply his creation, he shouldn't need her to hold them for him. If that is the case, why is Luca involved at all? If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on March 23, 2012, 08:34:36 AM
I theorize that Luca uses more mental strength - not PSP
You need to be more clear what that means.  Based on what I know, mental strength is a combination of psy power, psy defence, aptitude, and an ability to focus (PsP). 

she is able to contain this struggling energy when Duvalier struggles to fit it.
Again, spirits have a much greater affinity at containing energy than humans.  Lets say that soul charges are like square pegs.  A spirit's body would be a square hole, while the human brain is a round hole.  It is clearly easier to put a square peg into a square hole than to put square peg into a round hole.  That is why Duvalier says "the difficult part" starts when he has to force the soul charge into a shape that fits the person's brain.

I will concede the possibility that Luca is simply more suited to doing this - but if Luca is simply his creation, he shouldn't need her to hold them for him. If that is the case, why is Luca involved at all?
Duvalier needs Luca, because only spirits can use soul suck.  Without creating Luca, Duvalier would be unable to gather soul charges.  Even though there is no evidence that Duvalier can or cannot hold soul charges, why would he want to?  It makes sense for Luca to hold the soul charges herself, since she is the one who gathers them with her attack.

If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Again, Luca's physical composition gives her special abilities that normal humans can't do.  Being made of psy energy, spirits can easily suck, transfer, and store psy energy.  The same composition that allows Luca to store large amounts of psy energy would allow her to hold soul charges.  Luca can levitate and have physical resistance too, but that doesn't mean that she is more powerful than Duvalier.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on March 23, 2012, 04:02:15 PM
If when people die they can only be revived by a particularly skilled psy, together with some energy from a soul charge, then how is the revived person the same person it was. In my view, I would expect that the psy would mold what he thinks the person is. And his vision could be different from what some of the others see. Furthermore, Duvalier could even feel tempted to change bits of the characteristics he dislikes, and it may even happen that unconsciously he tweaks something. This sort of things would be noticed by others and it would be included in conversation.
I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on March 30, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
If when people die they can only be revived by a particularly skilled psy, together with some energy from a soul charge, then how is the revived person the same person it was. In my view, I would expect that the psy would mold what he thinks the person is. And his vision could be different from what some of the others see. Furthermore, Duvalier could even feel tempted to change bits of the characteristics he dislikes, and it may even happen that unconsciously he tweaks something. This sort of things would be noticed by others and it would be included in conversation.
I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.

I can get behind that theory.

By mental strength I mean the ability to stay focused and in control despite distractions. For instance, Luca is able to hold the struggling energy during a battle filled with events trying to draw her attention (I'd certainly struggle in that situation), she is able to hold conversations and use psy powers, holding this energy all the while.

While your point that the energy could be more suited to being held by Luca, you cannot prove that this is the case. And what is your evidence that spirits find it easier to containing energy?

If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Again, Luca's physical composition gives her special abilities that normal humans can't do.  Being made of psy energy, spirits can easily suck, transfer, and store psy energy.  The same composition that allows Luca to store large amounts of psy energy would allow her to hold soul charges.  Luca can levitate and have physical resistance too, but that doesn't mean that she is more powerful than Duvalier.

As a matter of fact:

Therefore I still say the hero in TSOG is the strongest and most capable of them all.
Even though he is limited to one blast and one elemental area attack, while the TPA1 Hero can use three blasts and two elemental area attacks.  Do the math. 1<2 & 1<3.

Luca can use moves Duvalier is unable to learn. According to your arguments in the topic from which the above quote is taken, you take the stance that this is indicative of greater strength.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on April 01, 2012, 03:26:17 PM
While your point that the energy could be more suited to being held by Luca, you cannot prove that this is the case. And what is your evidence that spirits find it easier to containing energy?
Luca and the TRPG2 spirits are naturally able to hold more psy energy than any other class or race.  Just look at the amount of PsP (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Psy_energy) that spirits (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_(Class)#Stats) can have compared to other classes (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Category:TPA2_Class).

If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Again, Luca's physical composition gives her special abilities that normal humans can't do.  Being made of psy energy, spirits can easily suck, transfer, and store psy energy.  The same composition that allows Luca to store large amounts of psy energy would allow her to hold soul charges.  Luca can levitate and have physical resistance too, but that doesn't mean that she is more powerful than Duvalier.
As a matter of fact:
Therefore I still say the hero in TSOG is the strongest and most capable of them all.
Even though he is limited to one blast and one elemental area attack, while the TPA1 Hero can use three blasts and two elemental area attacks.  Do the math. 1<2 & 1<3.
Luca can use moves Duvalier is unable to learn. According to your arguments in the topic from which the above quote is taken, you take the stance that this is indicative of greater strength.
You completely missed my point.  The TPA1 Hero and Duvalier are both Gifted humans, so they are capable of learning the same psy techinques.  Human physiology limits the Heroes from learning some of the techniques of other races.  All of the human Heroes are unable to do spirit techiques such as Soul Suck, spriggat techniques such as breath attacks, and shadowling techniques such as shadowport.  Even though Duvalier may be a more talented psy than Luca, Duvalier's human physiology is less capable of holding psy energy and soul charges compared to Luca's spirit physiology.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on April 02, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
While your point that the energy could be more suited to being held by Luca, you cannot prove that this is the case. And what is your evidence that spirits find it easier to containing energy?
Luca and the TRPG2 spirits are naturally able to hold more psy energy than any other class or race.  Just look at the amount of PsP (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Psy_energy) that spirits (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_(Class)#Stats) can have compared to other classes (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Category:TPA2_Class).

Point taken, but the amount of PSP Luca has does not vary depending on the number of soul charges she has, so I would surmise that PSP is unrelated to how much energy she contains. In fact, you already claimed, in this topic, that PSP is:

an ability to focus (PsP). 

So nothing to do with energy.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on April 02, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
Psp points does seem to have something to do with mental endurance in which Luca describes as "raw Psy energy".  Soul charges are also a type of energy, so spirits should be more talented at holding it.

I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.
I can get behind that theory.
I would like to add that it is easier to hold a key chain than it is to correctly carve each key to fit a unique lock like it is easier for Luca to hold soul charges than it is for Duvalier to shape the soul charges for each individual.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on April 03, 2012, 06:13:20 AM
You may have overextended the metaphor; in this case, is it easier to hold a small portion of runny, rebellious liquid than it is to hold a significantly larger amount?
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on April 04, 2012, 04:58:09 PM
In this case, is it easier to hold a small portion of runny, rebellious liquid than it is to hold a significantly larger amount?
Again, you don't understand the wet plaster metaphor (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=928.msg37729#msg37729) because you are unfamiliar with working with wet plaster.  If you try to press wet plaster between cracks it will try to escape through your fingers.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on April 04, 2012, 06:22:59 PM
We've already had this discussion; the 'wet plaster metaphor' is seperate from the direct quote about the energy 'struggling'. You realise you just proved my point about you recycling evidence? At least check how I replied last time before bringing it up. Or quote yourself, so it saves me the time it would take to find the discussion in question, so I can quote my reply easier.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Zhampir on July 16, 2012, 10:30:51 PM
What I love about all of this is that most of your "knowledge" of the spirits is based on one book and not at all by personal experimentation.1 What we have experienced shows us that there are many many spirits all over the world, some that have lasted ages.2 The book theorizes that they are constructs created by Psys and that when the Psy dies the spirit dies. Since we have not found a civilization of ancient human psys (as all of the spirits we have found resemble human forms and not a shadowling's or spriggat's) I believe it is safe to assume the books theories are worthless and the author clearly had little understanding of spirits.

It also states that only the Psy can hear the spirits, while Griffin cannot not hear Duvalier talking to the spirits, Malis certainly does and the rest of the group does not offer there opinion.
Although, according to the Author, only the creator can hear them talk. While it is logical to assume the Author had little to no contact with shadowlings, that is no excuse for us to believe completely into his ignorance. A lot of the debate I've seen here is based on this book and not what we actually observed.

[I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.

I like this comparison a lot as it also eliminates the dreadful idea that Ert proposed about Duvalier and Nelis being able to change the personalities of the revived.

Alright, a compromise, then: Perhaps some spirits really are the minds of the dead, while some are formed from thought impressions.
I respectfully disagree
First off, Chocobo, this is a wonderful idea. Not only does this not break almost every conclusion of spirits this community has decided to believe in, it also allows all of my conjectures to be valid, a grand unifying theory if you will. Second, you disagree? Why?


1.You (Smartypants, mostly) consistently refer to Luca as Duvalier's construct. As well as many other areas referencing the book.
2. The ancient Crypts

and sorry for the many edits. I am, as I've always been very scatter brained. I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: ArtDrake on July 16, 2012, 11:06:04 PM
Oi! I'm not submitting to anything. I'd be more annoyed at your wording that suggests that we're a community that's badly in need of a white knight if I weren't 65% sure that you're a nice guy and that you wouldn't imply that on purpose.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on July 17, 2012, 10:18:06 PM
Since we have not found a civilization of ancient human psys (as all of the spirits we have found resemble human forms and not shadowling's or spriggat's) I believe it is safe to assume the books theories are worthless and the author clearly had little understanding of spirits.
What the hell are you talking about?  This sounds like incoherent rambling to me.

It also states that only the Psy can hear the spirits, while Griffin cannot not hear Duvalier talking to the spirits, Malis certainly does and the rest of the group does not offer there opinion.
A) The book never says only Psys can hear spirits.  It says spirits tend to only interact with telepaths.
B) When Griffin didn't see Luca, it was because she didn't reveal herself to anyone besides Duvalier (her creator).  By the time Mails arrived, Luca has already revealed herself to all of the other resistance members.

Although, according to the Author, only the creator can hear them talk. While it is logical to assume the Author had little to no contact with shadowlings, that is no excuse for us to believe completely into his ignorance.
A) The author never said that only creator can talk to spirits.
B) It is baseless to assume that author has never had any contact with shadowlings.  Also, the author's familiarity with shadowlings seems irrelevant to the topic.

[I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.
I like this comparison a lot as it also eliminates the dreadful idea that Ert proposed about Duvalier and Nelis being able to change the personalities of the revived.
Zhampir agrees with me on one thing.  Then again, Zhampir probably only agrees with my quote (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=1099.msg42036#msg42036) because he mistakenly believed it came from SteelFist instead of me.

I ignored the rest of what Zhampir has said, because the rest his of post is either irrelevant gibberish or a personal attack against me.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Steelfist on July 18, 2012, 10:04:48 AM
Since we have not found a civilization of ancient human psys (as all of the spirits we have found resemble human forms and not shadowling's or spriggat's) I believe it is safe to assume the books theories are worthless and the author clearly had little understanding of spirits.
What the hell are you talking about?  This sounds like incoherent rambling to me.

I think (And I'm stressing the word think here because I'm not sure) that the point he's making is that, if a projection can survive without its source still alive, there ought to be ancient projections, as they would still exist long after the destruction of the individual that created it. A possibility is that it runs out of energy, but that would render the crypt spirits impossible. If, however, they were spirits of the dead, many would still exist, so that makes either theory untenable. Solutions, anyone?

It is likely the author had little to do with shadowlings, due to their isolationism. However, we have no knowlege of how much contact he actually had with shadowlings, so the point is irrelevent.

I ignored the rest of what Zhampir has said, because the rest his of post is either irrelevant gibberish or a personal attack against me.

While some of the criticisms raised are valid, I concur that this is probably not the place to raise them in such numbers. Incidentally, ignoring someone because you deem what they are saying a 'personal attack' is to summarily dismiss all possibility that you may have flaws.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: SmartyPants on July 18, 2012, 11:49:32 AM
I think (And I'm stressing the word think here because I'm not sure) that the point he's making is that, if a projection can survive without its source still alive, there ought to be ancient projections, as they would still exist long after the destruction of the individual that created it. A possibility is that it runs out of energy, but that would render the crypt spirits impossible. If, however, they were spirits of the dead, many would still exist, so that makes either theory untenable. Solutions, anyone?
Isn't the only time that the player sees recreated spirits is when Duvalier and his fellow Gifted soldiers see the spirits?  If a spirit can only be around be around when its creator is alive, then wouldn't that mean that the Resistance members are ones who create the psy projections?  Instead of the crypts being filled with actually ancient spirits, the crypts are filled with spirits that were subconsciously created by the Resistance members.  According to Duckling's Theory (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=1106.msg42598#msg42598), Gifted humans can subconsciously use thought impressions as a outline or blueprint for the spirits they create.  Even if spirits aren't the actual souls of the dead, Duckling's Theory presents the possiblity that spirits could be based off of real dead people.

While some of the criticisms raised are valid, I concur that this is probably not the place to raise them in such numbers. Incidentally, ignoring someone because you deem what they are saying a 'personal attack' is to summarily dismiss all possibility that you may have flaws.
Lets not pretend that Zhampir's namecalling and insults are constructive criticism.  If calling me a "hypocrite", "Im2dumb4u", and "Sheldon the Closed Mind" weren't enough,  Zhampir decides to pridefully admit to insulting me:
I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone other that the one who needs the cobwebs cleaned out of his ears.
Title: Re: Revival
Post by: Zhampir on July 19, 2012, 07:28:13 AM
I'm sorry for my attacks upon you. They were off base and uncalled for. I know it is no excuse but I was having a rather rough night and, as you may be able to tell, not coherently thinking.

Now that I am thinking more clearly I will attempt to look up the correct quotations and clarify what my thoughts about the spirits and Luca's ability to revive as I'm not sure which topic this is about anymore as there are 3 with a similar title. My ponderings will be in the form of an edit, but because I felt like I should apologize as soon as possible, here it is. I'm sorry for my actions, and I acknowledge that you have made many great contributions to the Telepath forums as well as the wiki. I'm sorry for the disrespect I have displayed so abruptly and abrasively. It was uncivil and unwanted. Patience is not one of my strong suits but I humbly request yours.