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Games => Telepath Tactics (2015) => Topic started by: SmartyPants on October 08, 2012, 09:32:55 AM

Title: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on October 08, 2012, 09:32:55 AM
Would it be possible to modd a unit to be able to swim without taking damage like the Pirates (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate) of Fire Emblem?
Currently, you can do this by making a unit fly. However, to really make a unit like a Fire Emblem Pirate, I'd need to add a third movement type: aquatic. I was actually thinking of doing this at one point, but sort of forgot about it. It remains on the wish list, though it's not especially high priority just now. Feel free to remind me in a couple of months.

Wouldn't be cool if there were units who could swim without consequences?  If there were units with the aquatic movement type, then one can see campaigns with lizardmen from the swamp and pirates from the sea.  While not as mobile as flying units, aquatic units would still be a fun, new challenge.  In land covered in rivers, swamps, and waterways, aquadic enemies would be highly mobile threat that wouldn't be vulnerable to piercing damage like their flying counterparts.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on October 08, 2012, 09:43:18 AM
Current rules on Swimming through water:
• If a non-flying character ever begins a turn in water, that character cannot move normally: instead, it must swim.
• A swimming character spends 2 Energy to move a single space, either through water, or else onto land from water. After swimming the single space, the character's turn ends.
• Any character that begins a turn on an environmental hazard while not flying takes damage from the environmental hazard. By default, water deals 6 drowning damage per turn.
• Characters stranded in an environmental hazard cannot Move normally and cannot use Skills: all they can do is access the Inventory, Swim, or rest for the turn.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: Ertxiem on October 08, 2012, 02:57:24 PM
Yes, swimming is an interesting idea. However, the equipment (armor and weapons) that the units may carry can penalize them, that could be seen in terms of health and perhaps even in psy points.
(I just wouldn't call it drowning damage.)
So, yes to swimming and yes to consequences (hence my maybe in the poll).

Just thinking about the maps, we could make things interesting by making a cave accessible only by swimming, or we could swim through a shortcut to arrive faster at some part in the map.

Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on October 09, 2012, 12:22:47 PM
However, the equipment (armor and weapons) that the units may carry can penalize them, that could be seen in terms of health.
One would expect an aquatic unit to have less heavy equipment than its grounded counterpart.  I am going to use the swordsman class as an example to explain the difference between land and aquatic units:This means that when someone is modding a swordsman to be aquatic, they should make the aquatic unit have less armor (which means less health and physical resistance) than a regular land unit.  Since the aquadic unit wouldn't be burdened with heavy equipment, the aquadic unit shouldn't lose health for swimming.  However, swimming still should still cost extra energy or movements for an aquadic unit, yet it should still cost less energy/movement than the regular land unit in water.

Just thinking about the maps, we could make things interesting by making a cave accessible only by swimming, or we could swim through a shortcut to arrive faster at some part in the map.
Those are some interesting ideas.  I was mostly thinking of making aquatic enemies, but aquatic units that players control sounds like a fun thing to try.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: ArtDrake on October 31, 2012, 06:31:01 PM
Thing is, I'm not a maybe, or on the fence about the idea -- I'm completely ambivalent. No vote from me.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on December 09, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: xAnonx from Kickstarter comments
When playing the demo, I realized that swimming is more like drowning and it's also very hard to get out of the water again. For me, it would be nice if there were certain classes who are able to swin (those without metal armor p.e.) and others who are not. This could open more tactical possibilities. It should still drain much energy.
Title: Pirates (Aquatic Movement)
Post by: SmartyPants on January 07, 2013, 12:17:38 AM
Accordin' t' a previous poll (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=771.0), people love pirates such as Pirate Pete (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate_Pete). I believe that Aquatic Movement be t' perfect solution t' satisfy people's nich for pirates. T' aquatic pirates will be much more mobile around water than those landlubbers, and they won't be vulnerable t' piercin' damage like those narsty flyin' beasts.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: ArtDrake on January 08, 2013, 09:28:03 PM
But most pirates weren't able to swim -- they stayed aboard the ship, given that the waters were either too cold to survive long, or that boats most very quickly compared to a swimming man, and it's easy to get lost in the waves. That is, there was no benefit to swimming. I would say it would make more sense for lizardmen to be amphibious [not because of their biological nature -- that makes no sense, as pretty much the only lizards that can swim are crocodile skinks and water dragons, and I find it unlikely that the lizardmen descended from either, but I digress] in that such races are generally assumed to come from marshes or swamps, where a large river might have many tributaries, and thus navigation by canoe would be viable and useful.

What I'm saying is, the only feasible way of having an amphibious unit as I see it is to get someone who can actually swim [unlikely, considering everone's amazing proclivity for drowning in TT] or to have someone who can bring a lightweight boat along the land with them. It would have to be a specialised class of lizardman, but I feel it would, overall, make more sense.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: CraigStern on January 09, 2013, 07:58:39 PM
Random thing: Pirates are an axe-wielding class in the Fire Emblem games that can move through water tiles. I'm not sure if Smarty was intentionally referencing that or not, but I just sort of assumed that's what he was going for there.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: ArtDrake on January 10, 2013, 12:14:56 AM
He does seem to link to Fire Emblem wiki pages quite a bit. Then let not mere fact stand in the way of established gaming precedent!
Title: Re: Pirates (Aquatic Movement)
Post by: SmartyPants on January 10, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
But most pirates weren't able to swim -- they stayed aboard the ship, given that the waters were either too cold to survive long, or that boats most very quickly compared to a swimming man, and it's easy to get lost in the waves.
Many pirates in t' 17th Century didn't need t' learn how t' swim, because a pirate be doomed t' Davy Jones' Locker as soon as they fall overboard in blue water. However, thar be many differences between real world pirates and t' pirates o' t' Telepath series. For example, you won't see six pounders and pistols in Cera Bella, and you won't see golems and telepaths in t' real world. Another difference can be that t' pirates o' t' Dundar Archipelago value t' ability t' swim because it helps them combat Mentalists' who can easily push or pull them overboard.

I would say it would make more sense for lizardmen to be amphibious in that such races are generally assumed to come from marshes or swamps, where a large river might have many tributaries.
I agree that certain lizardmen could be very apt at swimmin' through swamps and accross streams due t' the environment they grow up in.

Random thing: Pirates are an axe-wielding class in the Fire Emblem games that can move through water tiles. I'm not sure if Smarty was intentionally referencing that or not, but I just sort of assumed that's what he was going for there.
Aye, the pirates (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Pirate) and berserkers (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Berserker) of Fire Emblem be me muse.

He does seem to link to Fire Emblem wiki pages quite a bit. Then let not mere fact stand in the way of established gaming precedent!
What established gamin' precedent?
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: ArtDrake on January 10, 2013, 04:46:29 PM
|SP: What established [gaming] precedent?|

I was just pretty much concurring with you, having realised that you were drawing from Fire Emblem for the abilities of the proposed Pirates, and that thus there was precedent for swimming pirates.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on January 15, 2013, 09:50:56 AM
Do you concur that aquatic movement should be in t' game, or be you just agreein' with t' fact that pirates swim in turn-based tactic games?"
Title: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on September 02, 2013, 03:29:54 PM
I was trying to mod a version of Swim (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Swim) that could be used an "Unlimited" number of times during a turn instead of the usual Swim that "EndTurn" after being used.  Unfortunately, this seems to be outside my modding capability.  I would also prefer that the Unlimited version of swim only apply to water, instead of both water (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Water) and lava (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Lava).
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: bugfartboy on September 02, 2013, 08:41:30 PM
From what I understand from Craig while I was having issues with attacks, Swim is assigned to every character by default. I believe it may not be quite possible to do what you tried... Yet...?
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on September 03, 2013, 02:37:48 PM
I was trying to make a skill unimaginatively named "Swimming" that would allow a character move through water without the turn ending.  I was attempting to make "Swimming" similar to Leap (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Leap_(Telepath_Tactics)) and Shadowport (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowport_(Telepath_Tactics))- the units spend energy (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Energy) to gain mobility.  As long as the character had the 2 energy per-space, the unit would be able to move in and out of water without the risk of taking drowning damage.

Based on my experiments with the modding, I figured that Swimming attributes deal directly with the game engine, so it outside my ability to make an alternative to swim.

Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: CraigStern on September 03, 2013, 09:01:58 PM
Based on my experiments with the modding, I figured that Swimming attributes deal directly with the game engine

That is true. Swim is a unique skill in that way. It's the only skill that the engine specifically looks for by name, and it's the only skill that the game deliberately hides from the skills area of the Actions Window.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: bugfartboy on September 03, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
As a note, changing
Code: [Select]
afterAtk="EndTurn"
to
Code: [Select]
afterAtk="Unlimited"
creates some interesting scenarios. Namely the ability to attack from water/lava after swimming and undoing.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on September 04, 2013, 04:16:33 PM
bfb, I have done the same thing! I had fun moving characters across water, but then it got kind of weird when the stone golems start swimming through lava.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: bugfartboy on September 04, 2013, 04:54:01 PM
I do think it would be interesting to be able to attach use conditions to attacks (i.e. attacks only available when a character is in water, lava, or both or at 0 energy. Essentially a hyperextension on "dependsUpon"), although I think would be difficult to implement in a manner both effective and understandable.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: JeenLeen on September 05, 2013, 01:16:15 PM
I do think it would be interesting to be able to attach use conditions to attacks (i.e. attacks only available when a character is in water, lava, or both or at 0 energy. Essentially a hyperextension on "dependsUpon"), although I think would be difficult to implement in a manner both effective and understandable.

If someone wanted to, this could also allow 'Limit Break' type attacks for characters at really how health.  I don't think I would like that in a tactical game like this, but I could see it being interesting.  I guess, moreso, I'd dislike it if a weak foe suddenly got a more powerful attack, although it could be a cool way to have a boss 'power-up' at low health.
As the system stands now, could one write a script that activates when so-and-so's health is at or below a certain number, and at that point give them bonus powers or stats?  (Could really backfire if you heal the boss and damage them again  :P)
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: bugfartboy on September 05, 2013, 01:38:53 PM
Indeed you could, but not in the way that would be required for a variation of swim. I hadn't thought of that, though, JeenLeen. I never use "OnStat" dialog trigger.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on September 05, 2013, 04:37:47 PM
I do think it would be interesting to be able to attach use conditions to attacks (i.e. attacks only available when a character is in water, lava, or both. Essentially a hyperextension on "dependsUpon"), although I think would be difficult to implement in a manner both effective and understandable.
Other than having characters swimming through water or lava, I don't see the use in such a feature.  Unless there are aquatic units like fishes or frogs, characters wouldn't be able to use attacks while trying not to drown.

I would prefer a new movement type (http://telepath.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_type) that allow the user to voluntarily swim through multiple spaces of water at the expense of energy.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: CraigStern on September 05, 2013, 04:42:08 PM
As the system stands now, could one write a script that activates when so-and-so's health is at or below a certain number, and at that point give them bonus powers or stats?

Yup! Bugfartboy is correct: you'd trigger the dialog with OnStat, then use SetStat to increase the character's stats and TeachAttack to give the character new skills. ;)
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on December 18, 2014, 05:26:00 PM
Dale looks like he would make a good aquatic sailor or pirate.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: CraigStern on December 19, 2014, 02:55:56 PM
Indeed. ;)
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: SmartyPants on May 04, 2015, 03:52:51 PM
I'm still unable to figure out how to mod aquatic movement into the game.  If anyone figures it out, then tell me how you did it.
Title: Re: Aquatic Movement
Post by: bugfartboy on May 04, 2015, 03:55:46 PM
I've got nothing. The only way I could think of would require being able to fetch the tile description at a location and changing a character's movetype to flying if they were on "water" tile and back to land if not.