I would like to start a discussion about how Nelis (the Shadowling Queen form TRPG2) is able to revive our fallen comrades.
It might be interesting to think about what should be different from what Luca is able to do in TSoG.
To begin with, here are some things that I think it should be taken into account:
1. How long is that person dead;
2. What is the state of the body;
3. The way the person died;
4. Characteristics of the soul of different races.
1. Let's assume that every person of every race has a soul. If a person is dead for too long, the soul may drift away from the body (while staying in this World or going to Heaven, Hell, or somewhere else). If this is true, what does it mean too long? Is it 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, or ...?
2. Is the body (in particular the more important organs) in good shape or is the body completely destroyed? Perhaps the soul stays longer near a well preserved body. And the way the body is, is related to how easy would be to restart or reconstruct it.
3. Did the person died of old age, or a long lasting disease? Was that person expecting to die. Or did the person committed suicide or wanted to die? I'm thinking again about the connection between the soul and the body.
4. Since the races have different lifespans, does that means that the soul is more connected to their bodies? Is it easy for Nelis to revive a shadowling than a human? After all, Nelis knows way much better how a shadowling works.
So, what are your opinions about all this?
I believe that Queen Nelis revives people the same way Luca does. Being a powerful enough psy to use multiple elements, Nelis should be able to learn Soul Suck. To get Soul Charges, she would have to kill someone with Soul Suck. If she depends on her supply of Soul Charges to resurrect the dead, then that would explain why the Queen "won't raise the dead for just anyone." She also requires the corpse of the fallen in order to revive them. If a body is completly destroyed or it can't be recovered, the person in unable to revived.
The second part of my theory may sound a bit far fetched. Nelis uses the Soul Charges on herself to live forever. As the Shadowling Queen, she tries to stay in a constant state of war, so that she has a constant supply of prisoner whom she can Soul Suck.
Quote from: im2smart4u on February 28, 2010, 03:31:29 PM
I believe that Queen Nelis revives people the same way Luca does. Being a powerful enough psy to use multiple elements, Nelis should be able to learn Soul Suck. To get Soul Charges, she would have to kill someone with Soul Suck. If she depends on her supply of Soul Charges to resurrect the dead, then that would explain why the Queen "won't raise the dead for just anyone." She also requires the corpse of the fallen in order to revive them. If a body is completly destroyed or it can't be recovered, the person in unable to revived.
I completely disagree on both counts, especially in light of what I've written in my last posts in the Noctus still alive? (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=77.15) thread with regards to the need for the body for the person to be revived. The fact that Nelis "won't raise the dead just for anyone" indicates more that she can't be asked to waste her time for those who are not important for her plans. The fact that Gen. Darkeye cannot die (again, speculation, including suicide, on the first page of the Noctus thread) and that fate itself, rather than Nelis, revive the Main, indicates that there is much more to it than just a body or lack thereof. Look at the attacks that kill teammates: sometimes they get killed by a Mind Blast, and that leaves essentially no marks on the body, or they can be burned by Fire Breath or sliced up by Spin Saw, yet all can be revived, though in some cases the bodies are mutilated or lost (Nelis can revive teammates who were lost over water in Lake Alto battles- and given that a lot of them die mid-battle, no teammate has time to go and collect the bodies, especially if only the Main remains alive). Then again, fate revives the Main, even if he's killed right in front of Tastidian by Flavin or Vagrant.
For the way Nelis revives beings, I think that her method is very different to the one used by Luca- she doesn't need a soul charge (ie a walking stick) for her to perform the act, as she is a very very poweful Psy, whilst Luca is not that powerful, but, rather, can perform such tasks due to her nature of being a spirit, whilst Nelis was very much a living being (hence, Luca even operates from a/via a different plane, since she isn't fully in the material plane, like Nelis was).
For the points mentioned by Ertxiem:
1). Estimating the time taken for the Main and the teammates to reach HQ after each battle (and taking into account that teammates could've died in the first battle, without the Main returning to Somnus), guesstimating distances from the map, I'd say that at least several days can pass and Nelis can revive beings (that applies to all races which were represented by the teammates). Potentially, the time can be greater, but that's the minimum time.
2). Given that, as noted in this post above, some of the bodies are lost or highly mutilated, whilst others are completely undamaged (think of a teammated getting damage solely through Mind Blast), Nelis can revive all, without exception, which makes me think that the resurrection process is linked to the soul and that all beings have a soul (judging from Luca's ability to use Soul Suck on all enemies, unless they have mental immunity).
3). It looks like this is important: from my thoughts in the Noctus thread, it would seem that Gen. Darkeye couldn't simply commit suicide in order to get saved from the advancing Spriggats and more conventional means had to be used. Possibly, if a person dies willingly, then their soul is transported to the "other plane" so fast that Nelis cannot retrieve it back, but if a person is killed, the soul doesn't quite feel at peace and lingers a bit more in this world (and, if the will is strong enough to stay in the material plane, then the result is the soul taking on a spirit form), then Nelis is able to re-call it back.
4). Very difficult to call that one: either way, even if one soul is easier to revive than another, it looks like the power required to do that was negligent with respect to Nelis' Psy powers, hence she could revive beings of different races almost at will.
I agree that Nelis is way more powerful than Luca. And the fact that Nelis is alive while Luca isn't is another reason to believe that their revival isn't equal. And I picked some ideas around here to start the discussion (in particular from the Noctus still alive? thread).
1. I also think that it's likely that Nelis can revive someone dead for about a week. Perhaps going up to a month may be reasonable.
2. The state of the body (or even its presence) don't seem to make much of a difference. So it may be possible that the revival consist of building an entirely new body. As opposed to fixing the dead body, more in line with the way I imagine Luca reviving a team mate.
3. I also think that the person must be killed against his will and without being prepared to die.
4. This is a tricky one, but it may not be crucial to build a theory. I'll think about it later.
And I remembered three new points to address:
5. What factors may facilitate or impede the revival? Perhaps distance and surrounding materials (dying in a forest or in the lake or in the caves) have a role. Can the attempts of revival by Nelis be deflected by a powerful psy? Can orbs affect revival? And what about resonance crystals (or some other type of crystals).
6. Where does the revived appears? Near Nelis or can she place him somewhere else?
7. What does the revived remembers?
I'd like to hear some (made up) theories about how the revival works. I'll think about it and I'll try to post something more soon.
Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
I was not thinking specifically about the main character.
Perhaps in the case of the main character, the one responsible for rewinding the time is Malignus (the Spriggat)... ;)
That's interesting... I never thought of having an actual in game reason for having saved games. hmm
Quote from: CraigStern on March 01, 2010, 09:22:00 PM
Does fate revive the main character? Or does it rewind time to give him a chance at a different outcome?
What I thought about your 'fate' death screen was just that there is a set future, so any actions killing the Hero did not actually happen and your goal is to get from Point A to Point B timewise.
Interesting point about fate, I never thought of it as a time-reversal technique, but that makes a lot more sense than fate simply "reviving" the character.
5). Not sure about distance- that just might be a factor, since all we know is that each time a teammate dies, someone remains alive after the battle (sole exception being the Main). At the same time, the lack of a need for a body (can't recover corpses mid-battle over water, for instance, and we don't know what happens to Shadowling bodies when they die- do they simply expand and burst, and dissapear in a puff of smoke?) seems to indicate the lack for a need to have close proximity to resurrect a being.
6). Well, all the revived ones are found at HQ, which is not where Nelis is, and since the Main doesn't bump into them walking from the Palace (another point- no fleshling is allowed inside the palace, and several of the teammates are fleshlings), I'd assume she can place the bodies at will, but then again- is there a distance limit? Since otherwise she can kill off a platoon of Shadolwings, then resurrect them at an enemy base- and since she doesn't resort to such tactics, I think that distance on resurrecting the body just might be an issue.
7). I think we can very positively answer yes to that one, since the revived characters all remember who they are, who the Main is and who the rest of the teammates are, they don't forget any of the skills they learn and they retain the same personality. Thus, methinks they remember all up to the point of death, and then after they get resurrected (but not the time spent in-between, since that would affect them pretty significantly, and surely they'd mention it?).
Another interesting point, what about animals of beings which are not really sentient (Flint can express emotion, since that is stated in the ending of TRPG2, if Helena dies)? Can they be resurrcted? Do they have a soul (I'm thinking Tikki here)? This brings about another question? Is there a set of beings which can be resurrected by Nelis, but not by Luca?
"Health" is determined by a characters Psy Defense, the mental resistances of the mind. When a character reaches 0 "health" it means they no longer have any mental defenses, so basically the body should go into a coma. So, the body shouldn't actually be destroyed, just the mind (it helps me to think of the Matrix, where only a mental projection is harmed)
There are problems when applying my following ideas to Luca so I'm just going to focus on Nelis and say that Luca is just different.
I think Nelis' revival techniques can only work in a specified location, such as the city of Somnus. Maybe there is something in Somnus, something that amplifies her power allowing her to revive those within her city.
What has always puzzled me is, why doesn't she just revive her warriors when you attack? When you attack the citizens they are instantly revived.
that's all I have to say for now... because I can't actually formulate a way (even a ridiculously all most impossible one like with my Ramblings) for all of these details to work out..
Well, that is the description from TRPG1, but as CraigStern noted later, the concepts have been altered slightly (about the mental resistances of the mind). Also, even if a person falls into a coma, if it happens over Lake Alto, they still drown, as there is nothing to support them. Also, if the person falls into a coma, why would they need Nelis to revive them? Surely there are many talented medics, Psys, who could get the person back onto his/her feet in no time (this especially applies to a Psy instiution like the Psy Academy, where satff, most likely, have extensively studies maldictions and treatments for them using the Gift as the means to cure them).
I think that the only reason Nelis revived the teammates in HQ, was because that is the gathering place for the Main and his team; I am sure she revived others as well, including civilan cases, and most likely revived them in Somnus of whereabouts, since she is located in Somnus, and given my argument above, her ability to create a body to inhabit, falls off relatively rapidly with distance.
The question about warrior revival has also been on my mind. I think that she can only revive one person at a time, and even if for her powers its not a very big deal, it still reqiures forcus from her- otherwise she could revive beings in batch-mode and there would be no need to apply for revival - which brings me to another point- methinks revival requires some time to be performed, hence with her ability to revive only one being at-a-time, and the process taking some minutes, she simply had no time to start resurrecting her slain protectors and instead resorted to other, more rudamentary techniques, like animating telekinetically ancient armor to fight the intruders, then going after them herself.
Ok, so the body is destroyed and Nelis creates the body, how do you explain Dorgon's revival?
Same as Flint's: if she knows the "soul", she can revive the body along with it. As long as the being can be classed as "sentient" or "aware", and Dorgon is quite close to the latter definition (at least, a highly advanced and interactive computer, which can evolve, since he learns a new attack technique), I think there won't be much of a problem for Nelis to revive him. The assumption here being, of course, is that Nelis can locate the departed soul/imprint of the being in the other plane (or lingering in this plane) and through the said impression, resurrect the being to its full capacity.
I don't have much time to comment on the above posts. I'll do it later if possible...
I have another thing to think about:
9. Can Nelis revive anyone or only the ones that she was in contact with? I was thinking that Nelis might need to "record" a mental impression before the person dies, in order for her to be able to reach for the soul and revive that person. And for that to happen, that person might need to be some time near Somnus at the service of the shadowlings. Or perhaps Tastidian reported to Nelis that a certain person (or golem) was preforming valuable tasks to her service.
9). That's a very interesting point, but I suspect that Nelis never met any of the teammates of the Main, especially when they died far away, like on Lake Alto, etc, hence what she needed is the person to die unwillingly, so that their spirit/soul remains partially bound to this plane for some time before dpearting, and she can find the soul and re-build the body. If the person dies willingly, then there is no reason for the impression/soul to stay in this plane, and it very quickly leaves it, so that Nelis has no "memory/impression" to work from.
9. I meant that Nelis might need some previous knowledge about the person who she will revive lately. That doesn't mean that she needed to meet them in person. She, being a powerful psy, may sense the mind imprint of everyone around Somnus. After she is informed that someone is working for her, she stores that information. If it happens that that person dies, she may retrieve that information to track the soul and use the soul to revive the person.
Or the Queen needs some of the remains(like DNA) of a fallen soldier to clone their body and then reattach his/her soul to the new healed body.
Another question.
10. Is revival harder if someone is using a slave bracelet? I'm asking this because the Main from TRPG2 (apparently) wasn't revived.
no because jack was enslaved and you could bring him back and also the hero doesnt die so you cant bring him back cause if he did die it would be over
Well, you could choose to set Gamblin' Jack free of the slave bracelet, after you buy him.
Regarding the main, the description when we die don't correspond to being revived, bringing into the discussion question 7: what one remembers when is revived. Does one remember his death, feeling the fatal blow, or is that last part just a blur?
Another question is what is a soul (at least in the Telepath world sense). But I'll leave that question alone. Anyone who wishes may start a new thread about it... I'm expecting that to be a polemic issue (and fun to discuss).
9. Your suggestion, im2smart4u, is that Nelis may be able to "track" the soul from the thought impressions left by the one to be revived? I think that idea fits better than mine in the Telepath world. So, in order to someone to be revived, some personal item needs to be within some range of Nelis (perhaps being anywhere in Somnus is close enough). And if someone on the team died before he/she went to Somnus the first time, it might not be hard to assume that some personal object was brought by one of the team mates even that the thought impressions were all over the ones which returned.
I agree with KZ that reviving takes some time (at least the few minutes the Main is talking with Negatus and the time it takes the Main to reach the Headquarters after that).
Well, with respect to reviving the dead, I don't think any personal possesion is required- that would contradict the postulation that one cannot revive if one dies willingly and it also contradicts the idea of a teammate dying over water- they might have all their perosnal belongings with them. I think it more likely that Nelis needs some kind of memory- like a name, or an image of the being that died in order to track down the remains of the soul in this plane and identify it- otherwise how can she identify the said soul? Thus, she may revive random beings at will, without really knowing who they are beforehand, or she can find a specific being to rveive, if she has some information concerning it, which she may get through the person that wishes to revive the said being.
About memories, I think the point where the person dies and the soul departs from the body would be the last memory the person remembers- the being won't remember the soul partially remaining in the material plane- at least there is no over indication of that happening, judging by reactions of revived teammates. But I am pretty sure they're well aware that they died and got ressurrected, though for them it's probably like falling asleep with a headache (or losing concsiousness) and waking up without one.
since all the spirits seem to have a very loose memory I don't think that a revived teammate would remember much of anything about their after-life, especially since it seems to take awhile for the spirit to pull itself together and realize it's dead.
It makes sense that that Nelis can (also) use the memories of the surviving team mates in order to track the soul of the person to be revived. Which brings a new angle for question 9: Does the person to be revived needs to be remembered by a psy user? Can Nelis track down the soul better in this situation?
About question 7, I agree that from the reactions of the persons revived in TRPG2 (and TSoG), they don't seem to remember anything about the time between their death and their revival.
I don't think that the person in need of revival is required to be remembered by a Psy user- I think a memory from any being would do: after all, surely her Psy powers are strong enough to get a thought impression from any being, not just those who use Psy powers? There might be a case though for her getting more details from a Psy user, so maybe, with more memories, it takes less time to track down the impression of the soul in the material plane?
Excellent, there seems to be a general consensus on folks not remembering anything when they are in the "dead" state.
If Nelis revived Dorgon in this way, what stops her from realizing he's completely different?
That'a good point that I have been mulling over since writing up my previous reply. I think that she might've not payed too much attention to the revival of some lowly helper to her Main: that off-hand superior attitude cost a lot in some wars before, and it does happen, despite how unlikely that sounds.
Then there is the issue of the golems being reverse-engineered anyway, so she might not have payed much attention to the fact that he might be slightly different- after all, she didn't see him in action on the battlefield, nor is there much difference between the two from the form, and somwhow I don't think Nelis knowns much about mechanics, so she might not have realized what she's seen when reviving Dorgon.
Besides that, I don't think Nelis had ever revived an energy golem to have a term of comparison.
That's a very good point, Ertxiem! Given that, and her lack of mechanica knowledge, she might not have realized that Dorgon is any different from the golems the Shadowlings were planning to manufacture.
So she might just assume that Dorgon is just like all the others. If the energy golems are just machines... couldn't she revive the ones we've killed so we could use them?
Dorgon doesn't have a spirit remeber. I think he was just rebuilt by shadowling Mechianics, that makes sense because he could never go on water and his parts were propabably o th ground when he dies.
Then why are the ones we kill ever reverse engineered, we must wait till we attack their base to learn how to make them.
Dorgon has the ability to talk and answer questions. Does that count as having a spirit?
Probably because of that memory issue: that is, Nelis needs someone to make the impressions for the soul to search. Plus, we don't know if any of the Energy Golems were destroyed, so there might be nothing for her to find.
Also, that is another point that hasn't been raised: can she revive hostile beings? Or would their soul impression be such that it will refuse to yield to revival? After all, in TRPG2 she only revived allies, and possibly neutral units, but not enemies. And even then, she couldn't revive all allies (cf Gen. Darkeye).
I don't think that Nelis is willing to give an effort to revive fallen enemies. Even if she could. She doesn't know if she can control them. Therefore, her efforts are better placed at reviving her fallen allies.
If it's a matter of control, couldn't we just slap a slave bracelet on them?
She is probably not willing, for many reasons, but then there is militaristic advantage: kill an enemy, then revive him in captivity and use involuntary scanning on him (or her).
I do suspect that there is that cause of death factor: beings overtly hostile to Nelis will leave a thought impression that will disallow Nelis from allowing them. Suicides take a slightly differnt angle, as they willingly part with the material plane, thereby not leaving anything temporarily lingering behind (and those who really struggle produce Spirits).
Well she is powerful and her age is unknown, she could revive anyone, but she is dead now, i would like to know how they are going to revive people now ???
I think that Nelis use the same skill as luca maybe people think she is GODDESS she could revival anyone eevn her self like luca
Luca being able to revive herself is most likely attributed to her being a spirit, and she is quoted as saying that spirits can be dissapated, but will return. Also, combine your double post.
Quote from: KZ on March 01, 2010, 02:19:17 PMQuote from: im2smart4u on February 28, 2010, 03:31:29 PMI believe that Queen Nelis revives people the same way Luca does. Being a powerful enough psy to use multiple elements, Nelis should be able to learn Soul Suck. To get Soul Charges, she would have to kill someone with Soul Suck. If she depends on her supply of Soul Charges to resurrect the dead, then that would explain why the Queen "won't raise the dead for just anyone." She also requires the corpse of the fallen in order to revive them. If a body is completly destroyed or it can't be recovered, the person in unable to revived.
I completely disagree on both counts, especially in light of what I've written in my last posts in the Noctus still alive? (http://sinisterdesign.net/forum/index.php?topic=77.15) thread with regards to the need for the body for the person to be revived. The fact that Nelis "won't raise the dead just for anyone" indicates more that she can't be asked to waste her time for those who are not important for her plans. The fact that Gen. Darkeye cannot die (again, speculation, including suicide, on the first page of the Noctus thread) and that fate itself, rather than Nelis, revive the Main, indicates that there is much more to it than just a body or lack thereof. Look at the attacks that kill teammates: sometimes they get killed by a Mind Blast, and that leaves essentially no marks on the body, or they can be burned by Fire Breath or sliced up by Spin Saw, yet all can be revived, though in some cases the bodies are mutilated or lost (Nelis can revive teammates who were lost over water in Lake Alto battles- and given that a lot of them die mid-battle, no teammate has time to go and collect the bodies, especially if only the Main remains alive). Then again, fate revives the Main, even if he's killed right in front of Tastidian by Flavin or Vagrant.
The need of a body for revival is further proved when Rahel says, "I don't like this reliance on Luca. She's useful, but she can't revive us without Duvalier, and she can't do it without the body."
Bear in mind that we aren't certain that Nelis revives in the same way as Luca; it's possible that Nelis doesn't need the body, due to sheer strength or mere difference in style and ability, whereas Luca does. However, how (and why) does Luca need Duvalier to revive people?
Quote from: Steelfist on January 07, 2011, 11:47:13 AMBear in mind that we aren't certain that Nelis revives in the same way as Luca; it's possible that Nelis doesn't need the body, due to sheer strength or mere difference in style and ability, whereas Luca does.
I hope you didn't just read the last post, because there are numerous reasons given in the topic that helps one conclude that a body is need for revival. The last bit of infro just further supports the theory.
Quote from: Steelfist on January 07, 2011, 11:47:13 AMHowever, how (and why) does Luca need Duvalier to revive people?
According to Griffin, Luca is only loyal to Duvalier. Luca may not take revival requests from anyone else.