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Games => TSoG => Topic started by: MikeW781 on January 22, 2011, 12:00:27 PM

Title: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: MikeW781 on January 22, 2011, 12:00:27 PM
There seems to be a widespread theory that Nelis will somehow be brought into the storyline of TsoG. What do you think this will entail as far as the mystery behind Yawah?
I will update the poll when new theories come up.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: Duskling on January 22, 2011, 12:03:13 PM
I voted that Nelis is Yawah because, even though, according to the story of TRPG2, you get incredibly powerful by the end, I think it highly unlikely that you can kill a deity that quickly.

OR

Nelis could be Cygnus in disguise, hence the mask, controlling the Cult as her puppets, since the Shadowlings that would follow her are only scattered Loyalist factions.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 22, 2011, 12:46:28 PM
*I voted that Nelis is Yawah because, even though, according to the story of TRPG2, you get incredibly powerful by the end, I think it highly unlikely that you can kill a deity that quickly.
*Nelis could be Cygnus in disguise, hence the mask, controlling the Cult as her puppets, since the Shadowlings that would follow her are only scattered Loyalist factions.
A)Nelis wan't a deity.  She used propaganda to trick her people into thinking she was a god on earth.
B)Craig wanted TSoG players to understand the game without playing TRPG2, so that wouldn't work by bringing back the Shadowling Queen
C)Why would the Shadowling Queen use her own race as a scapegoats?
D)Why would Nelis choose to take over the human-ruled Ravinale instead of using the Shadowling Loyalists and her ability to revive allies to take back the Shadowlands?
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: MikeW781 on January 22, 2011, 01:37:22 PM
*I voted that Nelis is Yawah because, even though, according to the story of TRPG2, you get incredibly powerful by the end, I think it highly unlikely that you can kill a deity that quickly.
*Nelis could be Cygnus in disguise, hence the mask, controlling the Cult as her puppets, since the Shadowlings that would follow her are only scattered Loyalist factions.
A)Nelis wan't a deity.  She used propaganda to trick her people into thinking she was a god on earth.
B)Craig wanted TSoG players to understand the game without playing TRPG2, so that wouldn't work by bringing back the Shadowling Queen
C)Why would the Shadowling Queen use her own race as a scapegoats?
D)Why would Nelis choose to take over the human-ruled Ravinale instead of using the Shadowling Loyalists and her ability to revive allies to take back the Shadowlands?
A- She was not a deity, clearly, since the TRPG1+2 hero seems to have killed her, but she also clearly had immense powers, especially with the fact that she could revive allies
B- He could explain the Nelis story in-game. Although this point is a strong reason that there is no relation
C- She would feel that her race had betrayed and failed her
D- She can only revive allies if she has the body. If she could just revive any ally, no matter what, she would have had a better defended castle at the end of the game. And she could have revived Tastidian a few hundred times.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 22, 2011, 02:26:08 PM
A- She was not a deity, clearly, since the TRPG1+2 hero seems to have killed her, but she also clearly had immense powers, especially with the fact that she could revive allies
B- He could explain the Nelis story in-game. Although this point is a strong reason that there is no relation
C- She would feel that her race had betrayed and failed her
D- She can only revive allies if she has the body. If she could just revive any ally, no matter what, she would have had a better defended castle at the end of the game. And she could have revived Tastidian a few hundred times.
A)She seemed to be killed, because she was killed
B) That would be lame to have Craig have a character explain the entire TRPG2 story and then explain all events afterward inorder to have the return of personality-less, dead boss.
C) Of the entire Shadowling Empire, only four shadowlings fought alongside the human Hero.  Compare that to the number of shadowlings that died protecting her, it would be unreasonable to think that the shadowlings betrayed her.
D) I never said that she could revive any ally no matter what, so stop putting words in my mouth. I was saying that the Shadowling Queen could use her power of revival to support the Shadowling Loyalist.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: bugfartboy on January 22, 2011, 04:39:37 PM
A) Maybe she only seemed to be killed. Maybe she saw defeat and did a shadowport to a very far and safe place in an explosive release of energy.
B) Perhaps that, instead of a character in Ravinale explain the story of TRPG1+2, a room in the Psy Academy could be a histoy class that could be covering the Shadow War when Duvalier visits.
C) Yes only four actually fought against her. But how many loyalists are there compared to the rest of the Shadowling population?
D) If most of her people have abandoned her, what chance would she have of retaking her throne? I would go for the weaker minded humans for my army if I were her.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: ArtDrake on January 22, 2011, 05:50:26 PM
Okay, I just want to point out that five shadowlings betrayed her; four of her race did.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: bugfartboy on January 22, 2011, 05:59:03 PM
Ducky, here the term "Shadowling" is being used to describe a race. Not members of a country.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: ArtDrake on January 22, 2011, 06:48:08 PM
Yes, and four shadowlings by race betrayed her. I even said so in my post. But I was just pointing out something that wasn't obvious to everyone, and thus furthering the ultimate goal of enlightenment.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 22, 2011, 07:20:28 PM
A) Maybe she only seemed to be killed. Maybe she saw defeat and did a shadowport to a very far and safe place in an explosive release of energy.
B) Perhaps that, instead of a character in Ravinale explain the story of TRPG1+2, a room in the Psy Academy could be a histoy class that could be covering the Shadow War when Duvalier visits.
C) Yes only four actually fought against her. But how many loyalists are there compared to the rest of the Shadowling population?
D) If most of her people have abandoned her, what chance would she have of retaking her throne? I would go for the weaker minded humans for my army if I were her.
A) The only reason that the Dissidents won the Shadow War was because the Queen was assassinated by the Hero and his team.  If she survived, then the shadowlings would have kept fighting and won the war.  If she shadowported away, then there would be no more Dissidents or Shadowling Republic.
B) Really? You think Criag is going to make the player sit through a history class in order to further the plot?
C) The only reason that there is a Shadowling Republic and Shadowling Loyalist is because she was killed.  If she was alive, then she would still control her Empire.
D) If she had your dumb logic, then she wouldn't have been able to control the Shadowling Empire for over 2000 years.  Most of her people didn't abandon her.  She died and left the government and military without a leader.  This allowed the Sprigats to win the war.  The winner of the war created a government.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: bugfartboy on January 22, 2011, 07:59:00 PM
A) Do you think that Nelis would really show herself after a crushing defeat? She could have seen the end and escaped. I mean, did you see any shadowlings that worked for her in the room during the final battle?

B) I meant that it could be a little tidbit that could be present, but not necessary to read.

C) Not if both sides thought she was dead.

D) Ah. But if even a, as you say, person with
dumb logic
can see that it would be a good choice then why couldn't she, who had
been able to control the Shadowling Empire for over 2000 years
have seen the same thing?

Now would you
stop putting words in my mouth.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: MikeW781 on January 23, 2011, 10:12:53 AM
A- She was not a deity, clearly, since the TRPG1+2 hero seems to have killed her, but she also clearly had immense powers, especially with the fact that she could revive allies
B- He could explain the Nelis story in-game. Although this point is a strong reason that there is no relation
C- She would feel that her race had betrayed and failed her
D- She can only revive allies if she has the body. If she could just revive any ally, no matter what, she would have had a better defended castle at the end of the game. And she could have revived Tastidian a few hundred times.
A)She seemed to be killed, because she was killed
B) That would be lame to have Craig have a character explain the entire TRPG2 story and then explain all events afterward inorder to have the return of personality-less, dead boss.
C) Of the entire Shadowling Empire, only four shadowlings fought alongside the human Hero.  Compare that to the number of shadowlings that died protecting her, it would be unreasonable to think that the shadowlings betrayed her.
D) I never said that she could revive any ally no matter what, so stop putting words in my mouth. I was saying that the Shadowling Queen could use her power of revival to support the Shadowling Loyalist.
A- She vanished in an explosion of light, leaving behind no body........ I thought it looked questionable
B- This is agree with, and it is the reason I think that Nelis won't return. I just want it to be accepted as a valid point, and would like to see discussion on it.
C- I was referring to the fact that Shadowlings stopped fighting for the most part when she died, which could make her believe that they failed/betrayed her.
D- Her powers of revival clearly weren't a factor in her army in TRPG2, why should they be now?. I personally think that they have no bearing on story; Craig just wanted a way to revive characters, and decided to attribute it to the one godly character in the game.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: bugfartboy on January 23, 2011, 10:23:07 AM
You kinda restated what I had said Mike. But only sorta. So maybe just before the final battle, a Hostory of the Gift class at the Psy Academy could move into the Shadow War and have a summary of what caused it, who the major people involved in it were, and how it ended. It could be something that appears but isn't mandatory to continue the game. Or maybe it could open up after the final battle against whomever is at the end of the game as a little not so special Easter egg.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 23, 2011, 10:51:13 AM
A- She vanished in an explosion of light, leaving behind no body........ I thought it looked questionable
B- This is agree with, and it is the reason I think that Nelis won't return. I just want it to be accepted as a valid point, and would like to see discussion on it.
C- I was referring to the fact that Shadowlings stopped fighting for the most part when she died, which could make her believe that they failed/betrayed her.
D- Her powers of revival clearly weren't a factor in her army in TRPG2, why should they be now?. I personally think that they have no bearing on story; Craig just wanted a way to revive characters, and decided to attribute it to the one godly character in the game.
A) All the bodies disappear when they die.  Almost all games do this because they don't want leave tons of corpses laying around.  Do you really know that the body disappeared?
B) So you agree that Nelis won't return, but you want discuss because you want her to return? I don't think things work that way.
C) The Shadowling Empire is based on the Queen's rule.  With her dead, what would the point of continueing the fight?
D) Clearly, revival was a great asset for the Army, because it allowed her to revive her greatest warriors after they die.  If the queen only shadowported away, then she would regroup with her forces to destroy her enemies instead of fleeing towards Ravinale.

According to the polls, Fyer and MikeW781 are the only ones who would assume the crazyest, baseless theory to be true.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: bugfartboy on January 23, 2011, 12:05:23 PM
Once again:
A) Do you think that Nelis would really show herself after a crushing defeat? She could have seen the end and escaped. I mean, did you see any shadowlings that worked for her in the room during the final battle?

B) I meant that it could be a little tidbit that could be present, but not necessary to read.

C) Not if both sides thought she was dead.

D) Ah. But if even a, as you say, person with
dumb logic
can see that it would be a good choice then why couldn't she, who had
been able to control the Shadowling Empire for over 2000 years
have seen the same thing?

Now would you
stop putting words in my mouth.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 23, 2011, 01:23:13 PM
A) Do you think that Nelis would really show herself after a crushing defeat? She could have seen the end and escaped. I mean, did you see any shadowlings that worked for her in the room during the final battle?
B) I meant that it could be a little tidbit that could be present, but not necessary to read.
C) Not if both sides thought she was dead.
D) Ah. But if even a, as you say, person with "dumb logic" can see that it would be a good choice then why couldn't she, who had "been able to control the Shadowling Empire for over 2000 years" have seen the same thing?

Now would you "stop putting words in my mouth."
A) So, you are saying that her pride wouldn't let her regroup with her forces to kill the Hero?  Then again, would her pride allow people to think she was killed by a human when she wasn't?  I doubt she was willing to give up the Empire she ruled for over 2000 years because she was defeated once in battle.
B) So, the a major plot twist won't be understood unless you go on a optional side quest?  That would be bad gamemaking which I doubt Craig would do.
C) Again: She wouldn't flee the Shadowlands when she still has control over it.  There is no reason for her to fake her death after the escape.
D) Work on your grammer, because your run-on sentence doesn't make sense.

When did I put words in your mouth?  Don't you quotes unless they make sense.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: MikeW781 on January 23, 2011, 04:43:46 PM
A- She vanished in an explosion of light, leaving behind no body........ I thought it looked questionable
B- This is agree with, and it is the reason I think that Nelis won't return. I just want it to be accepted as a valid point, and would like to see discussion on it.
C- I was referring to the fact that Shadowlings stopped fighting for the most part when she died, which could make her believe that they failed/betrayed her.
D- Her powers of revival clearly weren't a factor in her army in TRPG2, why should they be now?. I personally think that they have no bearing on story; Craig just wanted a way to revive characters, and decided to attribute it to the one godly character in the game.
A) All the bodies disappear when they die.  Almost all games do this because they don't want leave tons of corpses laying around.  Do you really know that the body disappeared?
B) So you agree that Nelis won't return, but you want discuss because you want her to return? I don't think things work that way.
C) The Shadowling Empire is based on the Queen's rule.  With her dead, what would the point of continueing the fight?
D) Clearly, revival was a great asset for the Army, because it allowed her to revive her greatest warriors after they die.  If the queen only shadowported away, then she would regroup with her forces to destroy her enemies instead of fleeing towards Ravinale.

According to the polls, Fyer and MikeW781 are the only ones who would assume the crazyest, baseless theory to be true.
I voted for no relation. I was trying to get you to let there be some discussion about the topic instead of having it die. Also, don't be offensive because you disagree with somebody. It generally makes people inclined to disagree with you.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: Idozen Cair on January 23, 2011, 11:05:00 PM
*I voted that Nelis is Yawah because, even though, according to the story of TRPG2, you get incredibly powerful by the end, I think it highly unlikely that you can kill a deity that quickly.
*Nelis could be Cygnus in disguise, hence the mask, controlling the Cult as her puppets, since the Shadowlings that would follow her are only scattered Loyalist factions.
A)Nelis wan't a deity.  She used propaganda to trick her people into thinking she was a god on earth.
B)Craig wanted TSoG players to understand the game without playing TRPG2, so that wouldn't work by bringing back the Shadowling Queen
C)Why would the Shadowling Queen use her own race as a scapegoats?
D)Why would Nelis choose to take over the human-ruled Ravinale instead of using the Shadowling Loyalists and her ability to revive allies to take back the Shadowlands?
Again, I find im2smart4u to be in the side with some sense. You guys (the people who agree on that Nelis is Cygnus/Yawah) have to understand that Nelis is dead. Her story has already ended at TRPG2. Accept it.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: bugfartboy on January 24, 2011, 06:02:23 AM
We don't know that. And neither do you. Did you see Nelis fade out in purple? All I saw was a flash of light. She could have escaped.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 24, 2011, 08:04:32 AM
We don't know that. And neither do you. Did you see Nelis fade out in purple? All I saw was a flash of light. She could have escaped.
Nelis did collapse to the ground before exploding.  She also didn't clap her hands as if she was shadowporting.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: Idozen Cair on January 24, 2011, 08:16:05 AM
Hm. Quite right. Why do you have to be so stubborn, Fyer? You have to realise that your arguement stands to lose. Craig already said that SoG will not be a sequel of the first two games, so people can play without losing story. Don't you realise that having Nelis as Cygnus or the other way round or....  >:(I don't know - doesn't fit in with SoG. The plot of the game was not supposed to be directed at shadowlings, and it isn't. So why make a shadowling the evil mastermind behind it? I fail to see your logic and I fail to see any acceptable arguments from you, Fyer. Nelis is DEAD. FINISHED. Her story has ENDED, alright?
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: Steelfist on January 24, 2011, 09:50:34 AM
While Im2smart4U is being an ass, he is also right (Despite this fact, he seems unable to properly represent his argument without misquoting or misunderstanding someone, probably to be irritating). Craig made it quite clear that he wanted TSOG to have nothing to do with the previous games, and besides, I don't want to see Nelis return anyway: Wouldn't it be dissapointing to find out, after playing through the game, that Craig had decided to simply 'cop out' and use an old boss? Why would you want that? Though a small mention that maybe Yawah was controlling or influencing Nelis I wouldn't mind, as long as it had no impact on TSOG itself.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: MikeW781 on January 24, 2011, 04:53:09 PM
I agree. I personally don't want any mention of Nelis in SoG.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: CraigStern on January 24, 2011, 08:27:19 PM
Attention: I do not want to see the words "dumb" or "ass" used to describe another member on these forums. It's rude, it undermines your ability to make a persuasive argument, and it violates the rules.

I'm not going to post about this again. The next time I see flaming like this, I'm handing out individual warnings, then bans.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: cyso on January 27, 2011, 05:27:37 PM
Craig made it quite clear that he wanted TSOG to have nothing to do with the previous games, and besides, I don't want to see Nelis return anyway: Wouldn't it be dissapointing to find out, after playing through the game, that Craig had decided to simply 'cop out' and use an old boss?

I don't think that TSoG will have nothing to do with the previous game. He just didn't want it to rely on the previous games too much. In fact, this is the description of TSoG on the Games section of the site.

Quote
The third chapter in the Telepath RPG series. The story is unconnected to the first two chapters–or so it seems. An online demo is currently available.

That being said, I think that, unless the reign of Nelis is mentioned a lot throughout TSoG to introduce her to anyone who hasn't played the second game, she won't appear.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: SmartyPants on January 27, 2011, 07:20:12 PM
Can you understand TSoG's plot without playing TRPG2?
Yes, though certain things will make more sense having played TRPG2 first.
It is extremely unlikely that Nelis will return.
Title: Re: Nelis and Yawah?
Post by: Idozen Cair on January 27, 2011, 09:48:35 PM
Agreed. I think the connection between SoG and the previous games is more likely something to do with the Nameless One than Nelis coming back.