Author Topic: Revival  (Read 19655 times)

Steelfist

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Revival
« on: February 27, 2012, 11:13:14 AM »
Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.

Edit: This is a split topic. It may also be interesting to take a look at the Revival by Nelis thread. Ert.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 05:18:57 PM by Ertxiem »

Offline SmartyPants

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Revival
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 02:02:36 PM »
When it comes to reviving dead teammates, Duvalier does more then Luca.  Luca does soul suck and hold soul charges, but Duvalier is the one who does all of the reviving.

Offline Chocobo_Fan

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Revival
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 02:15:42 PM »
That is an inaccurate statement. Luca is the one who has more power -- the amount of energy it would take to bring back the dead is immense. Duvalier just keeps a reign on that energy after she releases it and makes sure it "fits" into the mind being revived.

Also, what, are we supposed to not feel any emotion in the scene where Luca fights so hard to free her husband only to find he doesn't even remember her? Who cares, right? She's just a soulless construct, she doesn't actually have any real feelings or personality.

Alright, a compromise, then: Perhaps some spirits really are the minds of the dead, while some are formed from thought impressions.

I still think that Iblis isn't a construct though. His tale is vague in places, but he was very terse and didn't take the time to explain a lot of things. He sounded like he knew more than he said, he just didn't bother to tell Duvalier. And it is remarkably specific compared to the other spirits we see. There are just too many complexities to account for him being a figment of peoples' imaginations.

Also, re: the bandits thing: he's pretty deep in the cavern, and the scorpions probably menaced the bandits as well. It's probable that the bandits simply never got that deep.

Offline SmartyPants

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Revival
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 02:38:43 PM »
That is an inaccurate statement. Luca is the one who has more power -- the amount of energy it would take to bring back the dead is immense. Duvalier just keeps a reign on that energy after she releases it and makes sure it "fits" into the mind being revived.
That is an inaccurate statement.  There is nothing that says that reviving requires immense amount of energy or that Luca is using more psy energy than Duvalier.  We do know that Duvalier said "This is the difficult part" when he was about to start his part of reviving.

Also, what, are we supposed to not feel any emotion in the scene where Luca fights so hard to free her husband only to find he doesn't even remember her? Who cares, right? She's just a soulless construct, she doesn't actually have any real feelings or personality.
You were suppose to feel emotions at that point, because Craig cleverly didn't reveal what spirits really were untill late in the game.  Plus, to Luca, they are real emotions.

Alright, a compromise, then: Perhaps some spirits really are the minds of the dead, while some are formed from thought impressions.
I respectfully disagree

I still think that Iblis isn't a construct though. His tale is vague in places, but he was very terse and didn't take the time to explain a lot of things. He sounded like he knew more than he said, he just didn't bother to tell Duvalier. And it is remarkably specific compared to the other spirits we see. There are just too many complexities to account for him being a figment of peoples' imaginations.
You claim that Iblis seems to have a lot to say, yet he didn't say a lot.  Maybe Iblis didn't have a lot to say, because he has no real past to talk about.

Steelfist

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Revival
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 10:38:26 AM »
While I can't argue with much of your last post, I can argue with this:

That is an inaccurate statement. Luca is the one who has more power -- the amount of energy it would take to bring back the dead is immense. Duvalier just keeps a reign on that energy after she releases it and makes sure it "fits" into the mind being revived.
That is an inaccurate statement.  There is nothing that says that reviving requires immense amount of energy or that Luca is using more psy energy than Duvalier.  We do know that Duvalier said "This is the difficult part" when he was about to start his part of reviving.

That may be an innacurate statement. The difficult part was almost certainly referring to the difficult part for Duvalier. The only part for Duvalier. Manipulating this energy and storing it is probably difficult, if Duvalier struggles to mould it into the correct shape. And the energy was 'constantly looking for avenues of escape' -aand DUvalier found holding it difficult. So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating. I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.

Offline Chocobo_Fan

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Revival
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2012, 01:06:16 PM »
Yes. Shaping the energy is the "hard part" because it requires finesse and concentration. Luca is the one who actually provides the energy, however. In terms of raw power, Luca is the greater entity there. The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.

Offline SmartyPants

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Revival
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2012, 02:03:24 PM »
So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating.
Luca meditates alone in her corner, because meditating helps her grieve alone and remember her name.  Luca also meditates when she doesn't have any soul charges, so she isn't meditating to hold soul charges insider her.

I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.

The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
I don't recall that.  When does the game describe a soul charge?

Offline Ertxiem

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Re: Revival
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 05:29:23 PM »
I added a reference to the Revival by Nelis thread in the opening post of this newly created thread.
In there there are some interesting points that may be shared here, in particular the body - how much damaged can it be and still be revived.
And something else into the Revival by Nelis (mixing old and new ideas): the main was crucial because it was he who "kept" the best mind impressions of the teammates. These would be read by Nelis to be used in the revival process.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 05:40:47 PM by Ertxiem »
Ert, the Dead Cow.
With 2 small Mandelbrot sets as the spots.

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 10:09:27 AM »
So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating.
Luca meditates alone in her corner, because meditating helps her grieve alone and remember her name.  Luca also meditates when she doesn't have any soul charges, so she isn't meditating to hold soul charges insider her.

True, true - but then, I only said part of the reason. Obviously, she may meditate for other reasons, but it is entirely possible that a contributing factor is sometimes controlling soul charges.

I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.

I directly quoted the passage that led me to this conclusion, and yet you cannot understand how I came to it? Leaving aside the question of whether you do any more than skim-read posts for the salient points, I'll explain. Maybe I was more unclear than I realised.
The energy, when Duvalier moulded it, was difficult to control as it was (Direct Quote ->) 'Struggling and looking for avenues of escape'. So, I surmised that if it were difficult to hold and control in the 'short struggle' for Duvalier, holding and controlling it for a much longer period of time before reviving a teammate would be much more so. One point I may have to clear up; by 'process' I referred to the entire process of storage and use, not just the moment in which the revive took place.

The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
I don't recall that.  When does the game describe a soul charge?

I believe Chocobo_Fan is referring to the fact that, when Luca lays a hand on Griffin, you feel a 'great force' flowing from her into him.

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 01:07:05 PM »
So holding it for a long time would be an intense mental effort - which may be part of the reason Luca spends most of her time meditating.
Luca meditates alone in her corner, because meditating helps her grieve alone and remember her name.  Luca also meditates when she doesn't have any soul charges, so she isn't meditating to hold soul charges insider her.
True, true - but then, I only said part of the reason. Obviously, she may meditate for other reasons, but it is entirely possible that a contributing factor is sometimes controlling soul charges.
Your argument is that there is no proof that she isn't meditating to help her hold in soul charges.  With that logic, she could be meditating to have constant contact with Santa Clause.  You can't prove that she isn't contacting Santa, so it must be true.

I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.
I was more unclear than I realised.
The energy, when Duvalier moulded it, was difficult to control as it was (Direct Quote ->) 'Struggling and looking for avenues of escape'. So, I surmised that if it were difficult to hold and control in the 'short struggle' for Duvalier, holding and controlling it for a much longer period of time before reviving a teammate would be much more so. One point I may have to clear up; by 'process' I referred to the entire process of storage and use, not just the moment in which the revive took place.
(Direct Quote ->) "It's like forcing wet plaster to fill a series of crevices with your hands.  Little dribbles slip between your fingers, trying to escape."  You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.  The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.  Dumping a bucket of wet plaster on a crevice is easy, while making the plaster fit into all the crevices in the hard part. Since Luca can hold an almost infinite number of soul charges in herself, she obviously doesn't have an issue fitting them in herself.

The game describes the soul charge as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store.
I don't recall that.  When does the game describe a soul charge?
I believe Chocobo_Fan is referring to the fact that, when Luca lays a hand on Griffin, you feel a 'great force' flowing from her into him.
I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.

Offline Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Revival
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 03:08:13 PM »
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I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.
...Except I did present it as fact? I was citing my source. I'm really confused by what you're talking about. Are you admitting that my theory is right if that piece of supporting evidence is fact?

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You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.
...Is it too much to ask that we don't resort to flinging accusations, please? Let's keep things civil here.

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The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.  Dumping a bucket of wet plaster on a crevice is easy, while making the plaster fit into all the crevices in the hard part. Since Luca can hold an almost infinite number of soul charges in herself, she obviously doesn't have an issue fitting them in herself.
I refer you to my previous posts. Molding the energy requires finesse, but Luca has (or holds) more raw power. Duvalier may be capable of doing something she can't, but only because he has more knowledge regarding the target of the soul charge. She is still higher than him in terms of an absolute power spectrum. She is capable of extracting and holding multiple soul charges, when Duvalier struggles to contain even a single one. How is Luca capable of doing something Duvalier can't if she's just a figment of his imagination?

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 03:25:28 PM »
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I doubt that.  If that was true, then Chocobo Fan would be presenting his speculation as a a fact directly given by the game.  I don't think Chocobo Fan would directly lie like that.
...Except I did present it as fact? I was citing my source. I'm really confused by what you're talking about. Are you admitting that my theory is right if that piece of supporting evidence is fact?
If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claim that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did the game say something vastly different and vague like "feels a great force"?

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You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.
...Is it too much to ask that we don't resort to flinging accusations, please? Let's keep things civil here.
How is that uncivil?  It is perfectly reasonable to assume that SteelFist didn't understand the revival description because he is unfamiliar with working with wet plaster.

She is still higher than him in terms of an absolute power spectrum.
Are you honestly telling me that Luca has greater psy power than Duvalier?

Offline Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Revival
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 04:22:27 PM »
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If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claimed that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like ""as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did it say something vague like it feels like a "great force"?
Um...I was basing my information off of this. A topic you created. I am curious as to how you are confused when you cited that same post to help your argument earlier in this very thread.

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Are you honestly telling me that Luca has greater psy power than Duvalier?
I direct you to Gameplay and Story Segregation. However, even if we are working within those confines, the psy power stat is not, in fact, the only aspect of a psy's power. Luca has a very specific skill and ability that no other character we've seen is capable of. Perhaps saying that she's higher on an absolute power spectrum is incorrect, but she does have an ability that Duvalier does not and cannot replicate.

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 10:22:56 PM »
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If the game never described a soul charge "as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store", and you claimed that it did, then that would make you a liar.  So, did TSoG have anything like ""as an immense torrent of energy -- far greater than a normal being could store" or did it say something vague like it feels like a "great force"?
Um...I was basing my information off of this. A topic you created. I am curious as to how you are confused when you cited that same post to help your argument earlier in this very thread
I am confused because the topic I created didn't say anything about  a soul charges being "immense torrent of energy" that is "far greater than a normal being could store".  If you want people to take you seriously, then you shouldn't make up information and then pretend like you are directly paraphrasing the game.

Mmm-hmm. No. Luca uses an awful lot of power for an extension of Duvalier's mind. She has the power to manipulate souls and raise the dead. If Duvalier had that kind of ability, I'm sure he would have noticed. It's the kind of thing you pay attention to.
Back on topic:  It shown that Duvalier has more talent then Luca, since he does most of the leg work during the revivial process.  The only techniques that Luca can do that Duvalier can't are techniques that can't be done with a human's composition.  Duvalier can't hold soul charges, steal psy energy, and transfer psy energy, because he lacks Luca's psy energy body.  Duvalier's mind created her to do things that he couldn't do as a human.

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 09:53:19 AM »
I don't know about energy expenditure, but it looks like Luca has to use more mental strength during the process.
I don't know where you got that conclusion.  Luca simply puts her hand on the deads head and lets the soul charge flow into the dead, while Duvalier franticly struggles to make the soul charge fit.
I was more unclear than I realised.
The energy, when Duvalier moulded it, was difficult to control as it was (Direct Quote ->) 'Struggling and looking for avenues of escape'. So, I surmised that if it were difficult to hold and control in the 'short struggle' for Duvalier, holding and controlling it for a much longer period of time before reviving a teammate would be much more so. One point I may have to clear up; by 'process' I referred to the entire process of storage and use, not just the moment in which the revive took place.
(Direct Quote ->) "It's like forcing wet plaster to fill a series of crevices with your hands.  Little dribbles slip between your fingers, trying to escape."  You have clearly never worked with wet plaster.  The little "dribbles slip between your fingers", because you are trying to force a lot of mass in a small space.

Indeed, I have never worked with plaster. However, neither have I heard of it 'struggling'. The passage insinuates that the energy is somehow alive and attempting to break free - the word it uses; 'looking', it good evidence of this. The 'wet plaster' quote is clearly sperate, as he has not started working with it at this point. So, my surmise that Luca uses more mental strength (Not Psp) appears to reamin intact.