Author Topic: Revival  (Read 20517 times)

Offline Ertxiem

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Re: Revival
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 11:34:44 AM »
I would like to discuss what does it mean to be alive, dead and what is to be revived.
In particular, I would like to address the following point in the case that the spirits are creations of psys instead of dead people:
If when people die they can only be revived by a particularly skilled psy, together with some energy from a soul charge, then how is the revived person the same person it was. In my view, I would expect that the psy would mould what he thinks the person is. And his vision could be different from what some of the others see. Furthermore, Duvalier could even feel tempted to change bits of the characteristics he dislikes, and it may even happen that unconsciously he tweaks something. This sort of things would be noticed by others and it would be included in conversation.

This would even allow a malevolent character to create an obedient army. Even if we consider that Nelis revival technique is different from Duvalier and Luca's technique, I think it would be likely that Nelis, during the revival process, tried to mould the revived into her own interests. Furthermore, each revived would be an improved version of the previous revived, not necessarily related to the one being revived at the moment. On the other hand, perhaps Nelis was trying exactly this when the Phantom Armor were created. However, we don't have much information about the Phantom Armor. (I assume that they are similar to golems.)

Nevertheless, the existence of spirits would surely make the understanding of revival quite simpler, since what Duvalier and Luca have to do is to heal the dead body and channel the spirit back to it. That would further mean that the revived is who died.

I'm assuming that revival is quite a hard technique, only rarely seen in Cera Bella. It's rare mainly because it's hard for us to benefit from it and the enemies never have that advantage. If it was an easy technique, either Nelis would win any war easily or the Academy could master it too.

Ert, the Dead Cow.
With 2 small Mandelbrot sets as the spots.

Offline Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Revival
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 01:23:28 PM »
If you want people to take you seriously, then you shouldn't make up information and then pretend like you are directly paraphrasing the game.
If you want people to take you seriously, perhaps you should refrain from rudeness and personal accusations. This kind of puerile behavior only serves to discredit your argument.

"You can feel a great force flowing from [Luca] into [Griffin]. You can hear a sound like a towering torrent of water spiraling and sucking down a tiny hole."

This was the main passage I was using to make my argument. The description calls the soul charge a "great force" and makes a simile to a "towering torrent of water", which is where I got "great torrent of energy". As for my claim that this is far more energy than a normal being could store, it goes on to describe the torrent of water as "sucking down a tiny hole", implying that a human body has a hard time holding all of it in. (Plus, if we look at this from a biological point of view, the amount of energy needed to jump-start a dead body would be immense -- enough to recharge enough ATP molecules in order to get vital systems running again, and probably a steady supply of additional energy to stabilize it. And that would just result in a vegetable -- Luca's soul charge revitalizes the mind as well.) Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2012, 01:43:31 PM »
This would even allow a malevolent character to create an obedient army. Even if we consider that Nelis revival technique is different from Duvalier and Luca's technique, I think it would be likely that Nelis, during the revival process, tried to mould the revived into her own interests. Furthermore, each revived would be an improved version of the previous revived, not necessarily related to the one being revived at the moment. On the other hand, perhaps Nelis was trying exactly this when the Phantom Armor were created. However, we don't have much information about the Phantom Armor. (I assume that they are similar to golems.)
I theorize that Phantom Armors aren't real living things.  They are probably are artificial creations like spirits and Cygnus's multiples.

This was the main passage I was using to make my argument. The description calls the soul charge a "great force" and makes a simile to a "towering torrent of water", which is where I got "great torrent of energy". As for my claim that this is far more energy than a normal being could store, it goes on to describe the torrent of water as "sucking down a tiny hole", implying that a human body has a hard time holding all of it in.
The actual quote is "You hear a sound like a towering torrent of water spiraling down into a tiny hole."  Just because something makes the same sound doesn't mean that they work the same way.  Light Blast sounds like a whistle, but I wouldn't theorize that referees use Light Blast during games.

Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?
Okay, look at this way.  I suggested that Luca can only hold soul charges while Duvalier can't because a human's composition is incompatible with holding soul charges.  You believe that Luca is more powerful than Duvalier and that is why she is able to do what Duvalier can't.  If it was true that Luca is so much more powerful than Duvalier, then why doesn't she do all the work in the revival process?  If it is so much easier to fit the soul charge into a person then it is to hold it, then why does Luca need Duvalier for the revival process?  If Luca is so powerful, then why can't she do all the things that Duvaleir can such as elemental blasts, elemental area attacks, and variety of shields?

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2012, 02:33:24 PM »
Luca is capable of holding dozens of these things, and does not appear to have difficulty containing them, yet Duvalier struggles to keep a single one from escaping. How in the world does this imply that Duvalier is more powerful than Luca in this regard?
Okay, look at this way.  I suggested that Luca can only hold soul charges while Duvalier can't because a human's composition is incompatible with holding soul charges.  You believe that Luca is more powerful than Duvalier and that is why she is able to do what Duvalier can't.  If it was true that Luca is so much more powerful than Duvalier, then why doesn't she do all the work in the revival process?  If it is so much easier to fit the soul charge into a person then it is to hold it, then why does Luca need Duvalier for the revival process?  If Luca is so powerful, then why can't she do all the things that Duvaleir can such as elemental blasts, elemental area attacks, and variety of shields?

I theorize that Luca uses more mental strength - not PSP - because she is able to contain this struggling energy when Duvalier struggles to fit it - or even hold it himself. I will concede the possibility that Luca is simply more suited to doing this - but if Luca is simply his creation, he shouldn't need her to hold them for him. If that is the case, why is Luca involved at all? If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 08:34:36 AM »
I theorize that Luca uses more mental strength - not PSP
You need to be more clear what that means.  Based on what I know, mental strength is a combination of psy power, psy defence, aptitude, and an ability to focus (PsP). 

she is able to contain this struggling energy when Duvalier struggles to fit it.
Again, spirits have a much greater affinity at containing energy than humans.  Lets say that soul charges are like square pegs.  A spirit's body would be a square hole, while the human brain is a round hole.  It is clearly easier to put a square peg into a square hole than to put square peg into a round hole.  That is why Duvalier says "the difficult part" starts when he has to force the soul charge into a shape that fits the person's brain.

I will concede the possibility that Luca is simply more suited to doing this - but if Luca is simply his creation, he shouldn't need her to hold them for him. If that is the case, why is Luca involved at all?
Duvalier needs Luca, because only spirits can use soul suck.  Without creating Luca, Duvalier would be unable to gather soul charges.  Even though there is no evidence that Duvalier can or cannot hold soul charges, why would he want to?  It makes sense for Luca to hold the soul charges herself, since she is the one who gathers them with her attack.

If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Again, Luca's physical composition gives her special abilities that normal humans can't do.  Being made of psy energy, spirits can easily suck, transfer, and store psy energy.  The same composition that allows Luca to store large amounts of psy energy would allow her to hold soul charges.  Luca can levitate and have physical resistance too, but that doesn't mean that she is more powerful than Duvalier.

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 04:02:15 PM »
If when people die they can only be revived by a particularly skilled psy, together with some energy from a soul charge, then how is the revived person the same person it was. In my view, I would expect that the psy would mold what he thinks the person is. And his vision could be different from what some of the others see. Furthermore, Duvalier could even feel tempted to change bits of the characteristics he dislikes, and it may even happen that unconsciously he tweaks something. This sort of things would be noticed by others and it would be included in conversation.
I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2012, 11:56:01 AM »
If when people die they can only be revived by a particularly skilled psy, together with some energy from a soul charge, then how is the revived person the same person it was. In my view, I would expect that the psy would mold what he thinks the person is. And his vision could be different from what some of the others see. Furthermore, Duvalier could even feel tempted to change bits of the characteristics he dislikes, and it may even happen that unconsciously he tweaks something. This sort of things would be noticed by others and it would be included in conversation.
I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.

I can get behind that theory.

By mental strength I mean the ability to stay focused and in control despite distractions. For instance, Luca is able to hold the struggling energy during a battle filled with events trying to draw her attention (I'd certainly struggle in that situation), she is able to hold conversations and use psy powers, holding this energy all the while.

While your point that the energy could be more suited to being held by Luca, you cannot prove that this is the case. And what is your evidence that spirits find it easier to containing energy?

If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Again, Luca's physical composition gives her special abilities that normal humans can't do.  Being made of psy energy, spirits can easily suck, transfer, and store psy energy.  The same composition that allows Luca to store large amounts of psy energy would allow her to hold soul charges.  Luca can levitate and have physical resistance too, but that doesn't mean that she is more powerful than Duvalier.

As a matter of fact:

Therefore I still say the hero in TSOG is the strongest and most capable of them all.
Even though he is limited to one blast and one elemental area attack, while the TPA1 Hero can use three blasts and two elemental area attacks.  Do the math. 1<2 & 1<3.

Luca can use moves Duvalier is unable to learn. According to your arguments in the topic from which the above quote is taken, you take the stance that this is indicative of greater strength.

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2012, 03:26:17 PM »
While your point that the energy could be more suited to being held by Luca, you cannot prove that this is the case. And what is your evidence that spirits find it easier to containing energy?
Luca and the TRPG2 spirits are naturally able to hold more psy energy than any other class or race.  Just look at the amount of PsP that spirits can have compared to other classes.

If Duvalier is so much stronger than Luca, why can he not use juxtapose, soul suck or transfer?
Again, Luca's physical composition gives her special abilities that normal humans can't do.  Being made of psy energy, spirits can easily suck, transfer, and store psy energy.  The same composition that allows Luca to store large amounts of psy energy would allow her to hold soul charges.  Luca can levitate and have physical resistance too, but that doesn't mean that she is more powerful than Duvalier.
As a matter of fact:
Therefore I still say the hero in TSOG is the strongest and most capable of them all.
Even though he is limited to one blast and one elemental area attack, while the TPA1 Hero can use three blasts and two elemental area attacks.  Do the math. 1<2 & 1<3.
Luca can use moves Duvalier is unable to learn. According to your arguments in the topic from which the above quote is taken, you take the stance that this is indicative of greater strength.
You completely missed my point.  The TPA1 Hero and Duvalier are both Gifted humans, so they are capable of learning the same psy techinques.  Human physiology limits the Heroes from learning some of the techniques of other races.  All of the human Heroes are unable to do spirit techiques such as Soul Suck, spriggat techniques such as breath attacks, and shadowling techniques such as shadowport.  Even though Duvalier may be a more talented psy than Luca, Duvalier's human physiology is less capable of holding psy energy and soul charges compared to Luca's spirit physiology.

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2012, 11:40:01 AM »
While your point that the energy could be more suited to being held by Luca, you cannot prove that this is the case. And what is your evidence that spirits find it easier to containing energy?
Luca and the TRPG2 spirits are naturally able to hold more psy energy than any other class or race.  Just look at the amount of PsP that spirits can have compared to other classes.

Point taken, but the amount of PSP Luca has does not vary depending on the number of soul charges she has, so I would surmise that PSP is unrelated to how much energy she contains. In fact, you already claimed, in this topic, that PSP is:

an ability to focus (PsP). 

So nothing to do with energy.

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2012, 11:58:02 AM »
Psp points does seem to have something to do with mental endurance in which Luca describes as "raw Psy energy".  Soul charges are also a type of energy, so spirits should be more talented at holding it.

I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.
I can get behind that theory.
I would like to add that it is easier to hold a key chain than it is to correctly carve each key to fit a unique lock like it is easier for Luca to hold soul charges than it is for Duvalier to shape the soul charges for each individual.

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2012, 06:13:20 AM »
You may have overextended the metaphor; in this case, is it easier to hold a small portion of runny, rebellious liquid than it is to hold a significantly larger amount?

Offline SmartyPants

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Re: Revival
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 04:58:09 PM »
In this case, is it easier to hold a small portion of runny, rebellious liquid than it is to hold a significantly larger amount?
Again, you don't understand the wet plaster metaphor because you are unfamiliar with working with wet plaster.  If you try to press wet plaster between cracks it will try to escape through your fingers.

Steelfist

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Re: Revival
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 06:22:59 PM »
We've already had this discussion; the 'wet plaster metaphor' is seperate from the direct quote about the energy 'struggling'. You realise you just proved my point about you recycling evidence? At least check how I replied last time before bringing it up. Or quote yourself, so it saves me the time it would take to find the discussion in question, so I can quote my reply easier.

Offline Zhampir

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Re: Revival
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 10:30:51 PM »
What I love about all of this is that most of your "knowledge" of the spirits is based on one book and not at all by personal experimentation.1 What we have experienced shows us that there are many many spirits all over the world, some that have lasted ages.2 The book theorizes that they are constructs created by Psys and that when the Psy dies the spirit dies. Since we have not found a civilization of ancient human psys (as all of the spirits we have found resemble human forms and not a shadowling's or spriggat's) I believe it is safe to assume the books theories are worthless and the author clearly had little understanding of spirits.

It also states that only the Psy can hear the spirits, while Griffin cannot not hear Duvalier talking to the spirits, Malis certainly does and the rest of the group does not offer there opinion.
Although, according to the Author, only the creator can hear them talk. While it is logical to assume the Author had little to no contact with shadowlings, that is no excuse for us to believe completely into his ignorance. A lot of the debate I've seen here is based on this book and not what we actually observed.

[I don't think Duvalier molds a soul charge into what he thinks the deceased person's mind is.  My impression is that Duvalier has to mold the soul charge to fit the person's mind or the person can't be revived.  The brain is like a lock and soul charge is like a key.  The key won't work unless it fits the lock, and a shaped soul charge won't work unless fits the deceased's brain.

I like this comparison a lot as it also eliminates the dreadful idea that Ert proposed about Duvalier and Nelis being able to change the personalities of the revived.

Alright, a compromise, then: Perhaps some spirits really are the minds of the dead, while some are formed from thought impressions.
I respectfully disagree
First off, Chocobo, this is a wonderful idea. Not only does this not break almost every conclusion of spirits this community has decided to believe in, it also allows all of my conjectures to be valid, a grand unifying theory if you will. Second, you disagree? Why?


1.You (Smartypants, mostly) consistently refer to Luca as Duvalier's construct. As well as many other areas referencing the book.
2. The ancient Crypts

and sorry for the many edits. I am, as I've always been very scatter brained. I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 07:12:07 AM by Zhampir »

Offline ArtDrake

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Re: Revival
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 11:06:04 PM »
Oi! I'm not submitting to anything. I'd be more annoyed at your wording that suggests that we're a community that's badly in need of a white knight if I weren't 65% sure that you're a nice guy and that you wouldn't imply that on purpose.