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[Zackirus]

That's a logical fallacy, a False Dilemma, to be exact. You do not know that The Spirit Within and The Spirits of The Dead are the only theories.

I quote things too, and you have yet to address my point

[SmartyPants]

I didn't address your point, because I only worded my statement as a "false dilemma" to see if could bait a reply.  Unfortunately, the only replies I got were unsubstantial points about what might be in future games and about some people choosing not to believe the crypt books they don't like.

[Steelfist]

Your entire quote lacks evidence of anything.  Your quote is full of irrelevant statements like "Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned," and your inconsequential argument that you don't believe any of the Crypt books.

These arguments have been brought up and subsequently deflected by your habit of (to use your term) cherry-picking facts. If spirits return, that is evidence that they are not psy projections, as they would require someone to recreate them. This person is not usually present in a situation in which spirits return, so thus they are unlikely to be psy projections. My irrelevent and inconsequential argument did have a point, much to the surprise of all.

I neither disbelieve nor believe the crypt book. And I don't much care what creates spirits. However, your refusal to see that other viewpoints can possess equal validity is the main source of disagreement; I believe that The Spirit Within could be a factual, non-bias book, but equally could be a biased and incorrect account.

You haven't made any concrete points yourself, so I contend that your own arguments are equally insubstantial (No pun intended), if not more so, than mine.

[SmartyPants]

If spirits return, that is evidence that they are not psy projections, as they would require someone to recreate them. This person is not usually present in a situation in which spirits return, so thus they are unlikely to be psy projections. My irrelevent and inconsequential argument did have a point, much to the surprise of all.

Isn't the only time that the player sees recreated spirits is when Duvalier and his fellow Gifted soldiers see the spirits.  Wouldn't that mean that the Resistance members are ones who create the psy projections?

I believe that The Spirit Within could be a factual, non-bias book, but equally could be a biased and incorrect account.

It is frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.
Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.

You haven't made any concrete points yourself, so I contend that your own arguments are equally insubstantial, if not more so, than mine.

The Spirit Within makes all the concrete points for me.  It points out how spirits can't be the souls of the dead, and then gives a plausible explanation to what they really are.  The idea that spirits are dead people is solely based on Baz ignorantly calling them "the restless dead" and Luca telling Duvalier "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."  One theory is clearly less substantial than the other.

I would also like to point that you have been unable to explain any of the holes in the spirits-are-dead-people-theory.

[Steelfist]

If spirits return, that is evidence that they are not psy projections, as they would require someone to recreate them. This person is not usually present in a situation in which spirits return, so thus they are unlikely to be psy projections. My irrelevent and inconsequential argument did have a point, much to the surprise of all.

Isn't the only time that the player sees recreated spirits is when Duvalier and his fellow Gifted soldiers see the spirits.  Wouldn't that mean that the Resistance members are ones who create the psy projections?

The spirits in Baz's warehouse are known to have existed before the resistance occupied the building, and not all of the resistance are full telepaths (Arman, for instance, doesn't display any psy ability as far as I know). Even if this were the case, most spirits just battle with the team, which would mean that the entire team is obsessed with violence. Even Set.

I believe that The Spirit Within could be a factual, non-bias book, but equally could be a biased and incorrect account.

It is frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.

It is frankly ridiculous to believe that calling something 'frankly ridiculous' constitutes an argument.

Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.

I can identify one possible source of bias; Non-psy scholars could resent the power of psys, and thus tried to turn popular opinion against them by implying that they are dangerous and cannot control their own minds. The sources of possible bias, political, financial and personal are limitless. We've seen evidence of discrimination against psys in TSOG, have we not? It could be a cleverly disguised prejudiced treatise.

Duvalier did not spot bias, but that does not mean that the theory is correct. They did not perform experiments (nor can I devise any), so the theory remains unproven.

You haven't made any concrete points yourself, so I contend that your own arguments are equally insubstantial, if not more so, than mine.

The Spirit Within makes all the concrete points for me.  It points out how spirits can't be the souls of the dead, and then gives a plausible explanation to what they really are.  The idea that spirits are dead people is solely based on Baz ignorantly calling them "the restless dead" and Luca telling Duvalier "I do not know. I was once like you, I think..."  One theory is clearly less substantial than the other.

This is clearly not the case; neither theory has been tested, and both appear plausable.

I would also like to point that you have been unable to explain any of the holes in the spirits-are-dead-people-theory.

But why would only some of the dead return?

I can't answer this, but the alternative doesn't answer the counterpart either; why do only some psys create spirits?

Why would they only interact with telepaths?

Because, being creatures of psy (Possibly even being sentient psy 'imprints' made upon death) they can only be detected with the gift. Equally, why would projections only interact with psy?

[SmartyPants]

The spirits in Baz's warehouse are known to have existed before the resistance occupied the building, and not all of the resistance are full telepaths (Arman, for instance, doesn't display any psy ability as far as I know). Even if this were the case, most spirits just battle with the team, which would mean that the entire team is obsessed with violence. Even Set.

A) The spirit voices created by Baz's Gifted servant are different from the spirits created by the Resistance members.
B) You need to read the descriptions of Arman attacks.  Both Leap and Mega Stab use psychokinesis to boost physical abilities.
C) They don't have to be obsessed with violence to project violent spirits.  Everyone has violent urges.  Even Set.

I can identify one possible source of bias; Non-psy scholars could resent the power of psys, and thus tried to turn popular opinion against them by implying that they are dangerous and cannot control their own minds. The sources of possible bias, political, financial and personal are limitless. We've seen evidence of discrimination against psys in TSOG, have we not? It could be a cleverly disguised prejudiced treatise.

That sounds like a conspiracy theory.  You sound like the people who say that climatologists made up global warming on behalf of the Democrats to undermind the wealthy oil companies.  Also, if anyone is able to identity prejudice against psys, it would be Duvalier.  Since Duvalier didn't identify any prejudice, there probably isn't any.

But why would only some of the dead return?
I can't answer this, but the alternative doesn't answer the counterpart either; why do only some psys create spirits?

Your inability to answer the question proves my point that spirits can't be dead souls.
Only the most powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits.

Why would they only interact with telepaths? Because, being creatures of psy (Possibly even being sentient psy 'imprints' made upon death) they can only be detected with the gift.

Spirits can choose to reveal themselves to humans, so why did the the spirits in Baz's basement only speak to Baz's Gifted servant?  If spirits were holding Fizooz hostage for a presumably long time, then why did Luca only ask Duvalier for help instead of asking everyone in earshot?

Equally, why would projections only interact with psy?

Because they interect with the people who created them.  Non-psys don't create spirits, so spirits don't interact with them.

See if you can answer these questions:

Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

[Steelfist]

The spirits in Baz's warehouse are known to have existed before the resistance occupied the building, and not all of the resistance are full telepaths (Arman, for instance, doesn't display any psy ability as far as I know). Even if this were the case, most spirits just battle with the team, which would mean that the entire team is obsessed with violence. Even Set.

A) The spirit voices created by Baz's Gifted servant are different from the spirits created by the Resistance members.
B) You need to read the descriptions of Arman attacks.  Both Leap and Mega Stab use psychokinesis to boost physical abilities.
C) They don't have to be obsessed with violence to project violent spirits.  Everyone has violent urges.  Even Set.

A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.

On another note, you go on to claim that only exeptionally powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits. We've seen no evidence that the team is exceptionally powerful, and while they may be troubled most of them are fairly well balanced and thus unlikely to create spirits.

I can identify one possible source of bias; Non-psy scholars could resent the power of psys, and thus tried to turn popular opinion against them by implying that they are dangerous and cannot control their own minds. The sources of possible bias, political, financial and personal are limitless. We've seen evidence of discrimination against psys in TSOG, have we not? It could be a cleverly disguised prejudiced treatise.

That sounds like a conspiracy theory.  You sound like the people who say that climatologists made up global warming on behalf of the Democrats to undermind the wealthy oil companies.  Also, if anyone is able to identity prejudice against psys, it would be Duvalier.  Since Duvalier didn't identify any prejudice, there probably isn't any.

And you sound like you're trying to draw meaningless comparisons between myself and a group of idiots. Thinly veiled insults may satisfy your ego, but they are not, and never will be, arguments.

In any case, it is a possible source of bias - no matter how unlikely you find it. Duvalier isn't certain to identify prejudice.

But why would only some of the dead return?
I can't answer this, but the alternative doesn't answer the counterpart either; why do only some psys create spirits?

Your inability to answer the question proves my point that spirits can't be dead souls.
Only the most powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits.

Good luck arguing against yourself, above. In any case, why would only powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits? And my inability doesn't prove the point.

Why would they only interact with telepaths? Because, being creatures of psy (Possibly even being sentient psy 'imprints' made upon death) they can only be detected with the gift.

Spirits can choose to reveal themselves to humans, so why did the the spirits in Baz's basement only speak to Baz's Gifted servant?  If spirits were holding Fizooz hostage for a presumably long time, then why did Luca only ask Duvalier for help instead of asking everyone in earshot?

Equally, why would projections only interact with psy?

Because they interect with the people who created them.  Non-psys don't create spirits, so spirits don't interact with them.

But spirits interact with other psys - ones who didn't create them; the team didn't create Luca, but Griffins dialogue states that he has spoken with her, but not to any lengths. And enemies attack Luca, and Luca attacks enemies, so they can see her and do interact with her, in a sense.

See if you can answer these questions:

Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

I can't answer that question, but then neither can you; if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

Given that they have died, perhaps it takes an unusual person to return - even for vengeance or family; I would have thought the worries of your life wouldn't be to urgent or important. Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed. Moreso than the team, who appear to have suffered comparatively little. Cera-Bella should be awash with projections; there are more than enough Gifted, especially if they all can create multiple spirits.

[SmartyPants]

A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.

A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.
B) Also, Craig's attack discriptions say that they are enhanced by psychokinesis.
C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.

And you sound like you're trying to draw meaningless comparisons between myself and a group of idiots.

Like global warming deniers, you disregard the conclusion and facts of scholars out of some prejudice or paranoia.  If you think that makes you like "a group of idiots", then maybe you should stop making conclusions based on conspiracy theories.

On another note, you go on to claim that only exeptionally powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits. We've seen no evidence that the team is exceptionally powerful, and while they may be troubled most of them are fairly well balanced and thus unlikely to create spirits.

The psy abilities of the Resistance members are much greater than TPA2 Black Capes which are considered skilled psys.
While many members of the team outwardly pretend to be doing well, they are clearly internally struggling with personal issues:
*Both Duvalier and Griffin become desturbed by having to kill people.  Or Duvalier enjoys killing people.
*Griffin has been abandoned by his parents and the Guard.
*Rahel is plagued with grief and an extreme hatred of the Cult.
*Arman is fearful of the Black Rose, and self loathes himself for abandoning his family.
*All of the Resistance members feel betrayed by their government, and major anger towards it.

But spirits interact with other psys - ones who didn't create them; the team didn't create Luca, but Griffins dialogue states that he has spoken with her, but not to any lengths.

"Luca? You probably know more about her than I do. I've only actually seen her a couple of times when she hasn't been meditating in her corner back there, and she hasn't really spoken to me.  I think she's mostly just loyal to you."  Being a creation of Duvalier, Luca tends to do almost all of her interactions with Duvalier.

And enemies attack Luca, and Luca attacks enemies, so they can see her and do interact with her, in a sense.

Craig said the Luca and Rajav reveal themselves to fight.  Luca only interacts with someone who isn't Duvalier when it is to help Duvalier achieve his goal.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?

The brains of races aren't that similar.  For example, human psys have to learn to use their psy abilities at places like the Psy Academy, while Naj and La'Man say using elements abilities comes naturally to them.  Unlike humans, spirggats and shadowlings don't have brain/mind to create spirits.

Given that they have died, perhaps it takes an unusual person to return - even for vengeance or family; I would have thought the worries of your life wouldn't be to urgent or important.

Azma and all his fellow thugs are all coincidentally qualify as "an unusual person to return", while no one who dies in TSoG fits the criteria?  That seems highly unlikely.

Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed.

For the hundreth time: Only powerful or troubled psys can create spirits.

[aziz]

A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.

A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.
B) Also, Craig's attack discriptions say that they are enhanced by psychokinesis.
C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.

Maybe many people created the spirits in baz's bazement and the spirits found a way to survive after there creator died by remembering their name or becoming a jinn.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?

spriggats and shadowlings are natural born psys so they have better control over their psy powers and hence their conscience doesn't create a spirit.

[Steelfist]

A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.
B: I was thought that leap and mega stab might simply be extraordinary physical feats, but it makes sense for it to be 'enhanced'.
C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.

A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.

Your evidence being?

C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.

If the team harboured self-destructive urges there are more direct means to kill themselves than creating a spirit to attack the team. It makes no sense.

And you sound like you're trying to draw meaningless comparisons between myself and a group of idiots.

Like global warming deniers, you disregard the conclusion and facts of scholars out of some prejudice or paranoia.  If you think that makes you like "a group of idiots", then maybe you should stop making conclusions based on conspiracy theories.

I question the conclusion of scholars because they have no facts, nor more than circumstantial evidence. I don't disregard; I merely point out that their conclusions are speculation, not fact.
It doesn't make me sound like a 'group of idiots' - you draw meaningless comparisons between myself and these 'global-warming deniers'.
I made no conclusions based on conspiracy theories; I simply pointed out the possibility of a small conspiracy attempting to discredit psys.

On another note, you go on to claim that only exeptionally powerful and/or troubled psys create spirits. We've seen no evidence that the team is exceptionally powerful, and while they may be troubled most of them are fairly well balanced and thus unlikely to create spirits.

The psy abilities of the Resistance members are much greater than TPA2 Black Capes which are considered skilled psys.

I'll concede that they become powerful. With training.

While many members of the team outwardly pretend to be doing well, they are clearly internally struggling with personal issues:
*Both Duvalier and Griffin become desturbed by having to kill people.  Or Duvalier enjoys killing people.
*Griffin has been abandoned by his parents and the Guard.
*Rahel is plagued with grief and an extreme hatred of the Cult.
*Arman is fearful of the Black Rose, and self loathes himself for abandoning his family.
*All of the Resistance members feel betrayed by their government, and major anger towards it.

True, but this should not manifest as an attempt to destroy themselves in the majority of cases.

But spirits interact with other psys - ones who didn't create them; the team didn't create Luca, but Griffins dialogue states that he has spoken with her, but not to any lengths.

"Luca? You probably know more about her than I do. I've only actually seen her a couple of times when she hasn't been meditating in her corner back there, and she hasn't really spoken to me.  I think she's mostly just loyal to you."  Being a creation of Duvalier, Luca tends to do almost all of her interactions with Duvalier.

This proves my point.

And enemies attack Luca, and Luca attacks enemies, so they can see her and do interact with her, in a sense.

Craig said the Luca and Rajav reveal themselves to fight.  Luca only interacts with someone who isn't Duvalier when it is to help Duvalier achieve his goal..

Yes, but there is a reason for this with either explanation.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?

Unlike humans, spirggats and shadowlings don't have brain/mind to create spirits.

Evidence?

Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed.

For the hundreth time: Only powerful or troubled psys can create spirits.

An gifted servant managed to create spirits.

[SmartyPants]

A: Are you suggesting that an untrained servant could create an entire army of spirits? Seems implausable.

A) I don't understand why you think Baz's servant created an entire army of spirits.  The spirits she created were only voices.  A group powerful psys, such as the Resistance, would create more powerful spirits, while a lone weak psy could only create spirit whispers.

Your evidence being?

According to Baz, his servent only heard the voices of spirits.  He never mentioned her seeing spirits.

C: Perhaps, but they only produce violent spirits, so evidently their violent thoughts and urges are prevalent over all other emotion. Like Rahel's grief, or Arman's guilt. Yup; the urge to commit violence completely swamps all other emotions.

C) The spirits may cope with negative emotions such as grief or guilt through violent means.  For example, the second stage of grief is "anger" which could easily turn violent.

If the team harboured self-destructive urges there are more direct means to kill themselves than creating a spirit to attack the team. It makes no sense.

The urges aren't self-destructive.  They are just misdirected.

if psy abilities work in a similar fashion despite race and mental communication works between races it stands to reason that their minds are the same or very similar. So why no projections from other races?

The brains of races aren't that similar.  For example, human psys have to learn to use their psy abilities at places like the Psy Academy, while Naj and La'Man say using elements abilities comes naturally to them.  Unlike humans, spirggats and shadowlings don't have brain/mind to create spirits.

Evidence?

If you want evidence, then just speak to Naj and La'Man in the basement.  All three soul-having races can use psy abilities, yet only humans create spirits.  That means there is something special about human minds that only allows them to have spirits.

Spriggats and shadowlings are natural born psys so they have better control over their psy powers and hence their conscience doesn't create a spirit.

Makes sense.

Anyway, in the situation, why aren't more people projecting? All those people who lost families, ned to fight for their families, really hate the cult, etc, should have been very troubled indeed.

For the hundreth time: Only powerful or troubled psys can create spirits.

An gifted servant managed to create spirits.

She only created spirit whispers and not full fledge spirits.

[SmartyPants]

I tired of always having an answer to all of Steelfist's questions, while he is unable to answer any of mine.

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

I can't answer this

But why would only some of the dead return?

I can't answer this

Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

I can't answer that question

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

Given that they have died, perhaps it takes an unusual person to return - even for vengeance or family; I would have thought the worries of your life wouldn't be to urgent or important.

Azma and all his fellow thugs are all coincidentally qualify as "an unusual person to return", while no one who dies in TSoG fits the criteria?  That seems highly unlikely.

[Steelfist]

Your answers to these questions have been vague and weak; without substance, evidence or reason. Your conclusions are drawn from the assumption that the book is correct; this does not validate your viewpoint. You recycle evidence and regurgitate it, over and over, without comprehending the boredome you induce.

And, after all of this, you have the gall to say that you 'tire' of having an answer to these questions where I do not - incorrectly, as your answers are themselves insubstantial - and feel able to conclude your superiority despite having demonstrated your inferiority by resorting to insulting comparisons and more directly insulting posts.

You may conclude that if you wish, but whereas I may enjoy debating with civil, reasonable beings, the only reason I remain here as yet (Unlike most other posters, who prefer to avoid your baseless vitriol) is because of my own stubbornness, and I realise my mistake. You are not worth the time it takes to argue with, and I am bitterly sorry for the time I have wasted.

But for your benefit, despite not feeling particularly benevolent towards you, I will tell you this: insults and attrition are not good tactics; they rarely gain you friends, and more rarely will they present you as anything other than foul - this will taint the views you voice. To take, for example, this discussion: I believe that both viewpoints are valid, and there may be other possibilities also. My view has not changed much. Nevertheless, due to your tone throughout, I would be less likely to agree with you than when I began, and I don't doubt that this is evident to anyone else who reads.

In any case, I am withdrawing and do not intend to continue this farce.

[SmartyPants]

When someone asks the same questions over and over, I going to be consistent with my answers.  If you find it boring that I repeatedly give the same answers, then maybe you shouldn't asking the same questions over and over.

You are full of it.  You claim that you exit the debate because I insulted you.  That would be reasonable if I actually insulted you.  I did point out that your entire argument was based on conspiracy theory which you partly agreed with:

I simply pointed out the possibility of a conspiracy attempting to discredit psys.

Even if it upsetted you that I pointed out that your conspiarcy theory argument is baseless and illogical, you don't have the right to falsely accuse me of insulting people.  Maybe you should act like a grown up, and admit that you are unable to think of reasonable responses, instead making false accusations about people.

[ArtDrake]

Huh. Well, since spirits consist of Psy Energy, and cannot be projected or created by non-telepaths, then it would be reasonable to assume that the ability to project/create spirits is proportionate to one's Psy powers. Thus, the Gifted servant presumably had significantly less Psy power than Duvalier, and yet she heard spirits in large numbers. Also, that the spirits showed up in the same place for both the Gifted servant and Duvalier suggests that there is some factor which remained consistent between the two. There are two that I can think of.

The first is Baz. Baz could theoretically have been, when talking about a Gifted servant, actually referring to himself, thus leading to the sustained presence of the spirits for most of Baz's time at the cellar. However, there is no other evidence to support this, so the hypothesis is rejected.

The second is the actual location. I propose that since telepaths are capable of reading mental imprints from various sources, when telepaths percieve the spirits, they actually are seeing the Psy energy manifestation of their subconscious projection of the mental imprints they receive from their surroundings. That is to say, Luca and Azma and Rajav are actual deceased personae, but Duvalier has created an embodiment for the imprints he reads off of surroundings. Thus, the few details the spirits can recall are a result of the inherent impreciseness of the imprints, and are truly the few strongest impressions the telepath can distinguish from the impression. A stronger psy will extract more information, explaining why the Gifted servant only recieved whispers, and why the same spirits will show up in the same places -- for different psys.

This second hypothesis brings together in a none-too-unreasonable way the two other existing hypotheses, does it not? And I would say that the support for it exists in most of the support for either one of the originals.