The Spirit Within [Crypt 4 Spoiler]

[SmartyPants]

The Spirit Within is a treatise found in the fourth Crypt's cache of books.

[spoiler=The Spirit Within]"Some believe that the mind evacuates the brain at death, and that spirits represent the mind divorced from physical form. But why would only some of the dead return? Why would they only interact with telepaths? A growing body of scholars have accounted for this problem by concluding that spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves. In this theory, a spirit is simply a telepath's internal mental processes manifesting externally. The telepath obsessed with violence conjures violent spirits. The lonely telepath conures companion spirits. And when the telepath dies, so do the spirits that (he alone) sees."[/spoiler]

[SmartyPants]

This book answered some questions that I had about spirits:

Why are spirits only humans?-  If spirits were just the "soul" after death and only humans become spirits, then that would mean that spriggats and shadowlings wouldn't have souls.  I really didn't like the concept of empathetic characters such as Festus and Cerzak to be considered soulless, so I was a little relieved to learn that spirits weren't real souls.  Now knowing that spirits are something created unconsciously by telepathes, one can now assume that only humans have the type of brain/mind to create spirits instead of thinking that the other races are soulless.

Why did spirits only talk to telepaths?-  Spirits can choose to reveal themselves to humans, so why did the the spirits in Baz's basement only speak to Baz's Gifted servant?  If spirits were holding Fizooz hostage for a presumably long time, then why did Luca only ask Duvalier for help instead of asking everyone in earshot?  After reading The Spirit Within, it makes sense that these spirits only talked to these Gifted individuals, because these Gifted individuals are the ones who created the spirits.

Why do only some of the dead become spirits?- Before The Spirit Within revealed the true origins of spirits, I was wondering why nobody ever knew a dead person who became a spirit.  Having unfinished business before dying woudn't be an adequate enough requirement. Darime, Griffin, Rahel, Malekahin, and Cygnus would have all becomes spirits after dying if they were only required to have a deep regret or unfinished business.  Also, Azma's need to collect a debt seems like very unimportant, unfinished business compared to all the people who died in TSoG trying to fight on behalf of their friends, families, and gods.  Since "spirits are not the minds of the departed, but rather, something created unconsciously by telepath themselves", it makes sense that nobody knew a spirit before they supposedly died.

Why don't enemy spirits return after being defeated?- Spirits can't be permanently destroyed, so why don't the spirits in Baz's basement continuously counterattack after being forced to dissipate?  If the angry spirits' wills were completely independent, then it doesn't make much sense for them to give up the fight so easily.  Knowing that spirits are created by telepathes, one can conclude that the Gifted Resistance members subconsciously influence the spirits to make the spirits think they have become defeated beyond redemption.

[Chocobo_Fan]

This is all well and good, SmartyPants, but still don't think you're clear about the fact that The Spirit Within is not the be-all-end-all in regards to spirits. It is one of many possible interpretations; it provides an alternative, more mundane explanation for the existence of spirits, if people, such as you, don't like the idea they are dead people. However, it is no more plausible than the alternatives -- there is a roughly equal amount of evidence to support both, as we have already discussed at length. Just like the more central theme of Yahwah's existence, the story is being deliberately ambiguous to allow the player to form their own interpretations. There is no absolutely no "correct" interpretation here.

[SmartyPants]

The Spirit Within says why spirits can't be dead people, and then the treatise explains that spirits are "something created unconsciously by telepath themselves".  You guys keep saying that there are holes in The Spirit Within's theory and that there is loads of evidence to why spirits are dead people, but you guys don't ever present anything to support your claims.  Your main argument the whole time has been that you guys don't trust anything you read including all the Crypt books.

Can you guys stop with the "Yahwah's existence" comparison?  You guys are comparing apples and oranges.  Like the real world, there is no evidence in the games that says there is or isn't a god.  On the other hand, the game presents evidence against the "spirits are dead people theory".

[Ertxiem]

I don't really understand why there are only human spirits. The book doesn't address that point and we have no explanation whatsoever for why only humans have spirits (spirits being dead persons or the creation of psys).

Furthermore, in TPA2 we can have a team of non psy humans and yet fight ghosts. On the other hand one can argue that at least one of the humans (our main character in TPA2?) may have psy abilities without noticing (but one can say that with respect to any human it exists in the TRPG world).

Another hard point to address is the fury and stimulate working in ghosts. We may say that the human that created them projects his knowledge and affects the ghost accordingly. If that's the case, there is no need to try to understand the ghost physiology in detail. I feel that this explanation doesn't fit perfectly.

One of the main objections I have to this theory is the number of units the psy human is controlling. Not only he is directing his troops into combat but it's also controlling unconsciously a number of enemies that may even be larger than his team. So, consciously he may control himself and 7 other people on his team, while at the same time he is controlling unconsciously even more enemies!? This is even more surprising if we consider that this happens in people without the gift to see and command like Duvalier does.

I'm still having a hard time to say that one of these theories has a decisive argument in favour of it.

[SmartyPants]

I don't really understand why there are only human spirits. The book doesn't address that point and we have no explanation whatsoever for why only humans have spirits (spirits being dead persons or the creation of psys).

If spirits are the souls of the dead and spirits can only be humans, then humans are the only race with souls.  If spirits are the creation of telepaths and spirits are only humans, then humans are the only race with the psychology to create spirits.  I will let you pick which is more likely.

Furthermore, in TPA2 we can have a team of non psy humans and yet fight ghosts. On the other hand one can argue that at least one of the humans (our main character in TPA2?) may have psy abilities without noticing (but one can say that with respect to any human it exists in the TRPG world).

I assumed enemy spirits in TPA2 were either created or adopted by other team's owners.

Another hard point to address is the fury and stimulate working in ghosts. We may say that the human that created them projects his knowledge and affects the ghost accordingly. If that's the case, there is no need to try to understand the ghost physiology in detail. I feel that this explanation doesn't fit perfectly.

I don't really see your point.  No matter where you think spirts come from, fury and stimulate don't make sense.

One of the main objections I have to this theory is the number of units the psy human is controlling. Not only he is directing his troops into combat but it's also controlling unconsciously a number of enemies that may even be larger than his team. So, consciously he may control himself and 7 other people on his team, while at the same time he is controlling unconsciously even more enemies!? This is even more surprising if we consider that this happens in people without the gift to see and command like Duvalier does.

You are being too vague about "the psy human" for me completely know who or what you are talking about, so I can only make points on what I do understand.  I don't think telepaths are always in direct control over spirits.  Like static shield, a spirit has some autonomy after being created.  Look at Luca, she pretty much stayed the same after Duvalier created her. Duvalier's subconsciouse will only remade her after a traumatic event.  If you are talking about the resistance fighting ghosts, then I should remind you that there are several Gifted members influencing spirits.  Also, Freud beleives that only 10% of the mind is the conscious part.  That means that one person can theoretically influence more spirits subconsciously than he can control regular team members consciously.

[Ertxiem]

1 - Only human spirits?
To me, none of these explanations seems likely. Humans, shadowlings and spriggats share psy abilities. I assume that their minds are different (physiologically and psychologically speaking) but with similarities that allow them to communicate and have similar attacks (like mind blast). Furthermore, they all have the ability of hiding their thoughts from others. It doesn't seem too far fetched to assume that they have a subconscious.
On the other side, if we consider the soul the essence of what the person is psychologically speaking, then all races should have souls.

2 - Spirits in TPA2.
According to The Spirit Within, if spirits are unconsciously created, then they shouldn't be consciously controlled by a psy. It's hard to believe that the other team can see them and interact with them. It's even more far fetched to say that the people assisting can see more than a bunch of fighters moving around hitting empty spaces and then claiming that they win.

3 - Fury and stimulate.
It doesn't make much sense to me either. I posted my views in the Fury and Stimulate thread.

4 - Spirits created by a human?
I wrote "psy human" meaning a human with psy abilities (with the gift).
I imagine a static shield being dirt glued together (the psy powers only moved stuff around at the time of creation). It has no personality.
A spirit has at least a partial personality. Considering spirits the unconscious creation of humans, then the human may suffer from schizophrenia and/or dissociative disorder (multiple personality). A greater autonomy from a spirit would mean a more complete alternate personality created by the human. Furthermore, if a human creates multiple spirits to fight him and considering that the spirits may even kill him (or shall I call it suicide him?), then this reveals a severe psychological disturbance. Having this in mind, perhaps the Nameless One should flee from Duvalier or be considered as mad as him since he agrees to train spirits. It would be more wise for the Nameless One to try to bring Duvalier to reality, unless he wanted a delusional leader in command of Ravinale (hey - this could be true if we sided with Nelis in TRPG2).
I wasn't taking about The People's Resistance of Ravinale fighting ghosts.
I'll assume that the 10% of the mind is the conscious part (even if it may be an old theory and recent mapping of the brain may attribute functions to different regions, without assigning numbers). Notice that in the 90% of the mind we have the control of vital functions and movement. Depending on how much these take, we may end up with more or less than 10% left to the control of spirits. Furthermore, the number of ghosts we fight against doesn't depend on the personality game stat which seems to be a measure on how many troops Duvalier can command (or perhaps it's a measure of how many personalities Duvalier has! lol).

(I has been a long time since my last wall of text! :) )

[SmartyPants]

1)I am not saying that shadowlings and spriggats don't have subconsciouses.  I am just saying their subconsiouses and "internal mental processes" work differently than humans.  Since you believe that all races have souls and spirits are only humans, then you clearly can't believe spirits are the souls of the dead.

2)I am not sure what you are talking about.  Are you saying that spirits are hallucinations only seen by those who created them?  Who are the "people assisting"?

4)

A spirit has at least a partial personality. Considering spirits the unconscious creation of humans, then the human may suffer from schizophrenia and/or dissociative disorder (multiple personality). A greater autonomy from a spirit would mean a more complete alternate personality created by the human.

Most spirits seem to be created with few personality traits and even fewer "memories".  Just look at Fizooz.  He is basicly a memoryless speck of psy energy with a name.  Deeper in Baz's basement, the spirits don't even have any memories.  They are just programed to fight or flight.

Furthermore, if a human creates multiple spirits to fight him and considering that the spirits may even kill him (or shall I call it suicide him?), then this reveals a severe psychological disturbance.

Enemy spirits are subconscious dark emotions personified.  The spirits are created by the telepath, but not directly controlled by the telepath (Who has complete control over their anger, hate, fear, and etc?).  When a telepath's mental processes starts manifesting externally, it is clearly dangerous.  That is probably why the completely-psy races have already had their minds evolve to not create spirits.

I'll assume that the 10% of the mind is the conscious part (even if it may be an old theory and recent mapping of the brain may attribute functions to different regions, without assigning numbers). Notice that in the 90% of the mind we have the control of vital functions and movement. Depending on how much these take, we may end up with more or less than 10% left to the control of spirits. Furthermore, the number of ghosts we fight against doesn't depend on the personality game stat which seems to be a measure on how many troops Duvalier can command (or perhaps it's a measure of how many personalities Duvalier has! lol).

The mind and the brain are two different things.  The mind is commonly used to describe the higher functions of the human brain, particularly those of which humans are subjectively conscious, such as personality, thought, reason, memory, intelligence and emotion, while the brain is the part of the central nervous system that lies within the skull.  That means that 10% of the mind is different than 10% of the brain, and therefore your link is moot.  I also don't see why there would be a connection to the number of spirits Duvalier creates subconsciously and the charisma that allows him to command more troops.

[Chocobo_Fan]

It is possible that we only see human spirits because we only see them in areas inhabited by humans. Or, if you want a Doylist explanation, because Craig didn't feel the need to design extra sprites. It is entirely possible that we may see the ghosts of other races in future intallments.

[SmartyPants]

It is possible that we only see human spirits because we only see them in areas inhabited by humans.

Think of all of the shadowlings and spriggats there were in TPA2.  Even though there were tons of spriggats and shadowlings around, there were only human spirits.

[Chocobo_Fan]

Duly noted. I refer you to the second half of my post then.

[SmartyPants]

It is entirely possible that we may see the ghosts of other races in future intallments.

You know an arguement is fundamentally flawed when it is based on speculation of what might be in games that have yet to be created.  With the same logic, one could argue "It is entirely possible that future installments will further prove that spirits are creations of humans psys." 

Since Chocobo_Fan and Steelfist can't present any evidence to support that spirits are dead or to contest that The Spirit Within is correct, it is safe to assume that The Spirit Within is factual.

[Zackirus]

Since Chocobo_Fan and Steelfist can't present any evidence to support that spirits are dead or to contest that The Spirit Within is correct, it is safe to assume that The Spirit Within is factual.

That's a logical fallacy, a False Dilemma, to be exact. You do not know that The Spirit Within and The Spirits of The Dead are the only theories.

[Steelfist]

Since Chocobo_Fan and Steelfist can't present any evidence to support that spirits are dead or to contest that The Spirit Within is correct, it is safe to assume that The Spirit Within is factual.

I rather think my summary of the the flaws in your reasoning, SmartyPants, is still valid. And you ignored it completely. Referring back to your earlier statement (that if no argument is presented, your view is, by default, superior), does that not mean that you have conceded?

@SmartyPants:

I know what 'The Spirit Within' says. It's fairly clear. And you can quote it to your heart's content. However, the source is suspect, as you can in no way prove the book to be true or false (for reasons already mentioned and dismissed by yourself using what I can only call cherry picking) - and that is the way Craig prefers it, as evidenced by his avoidance of revealing the existence or lack thereof of Yawah. So, I feel fully able to dismiss an argument based of the aforementioned points.

Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned. So they are either recreated or dissipated (Not sure who'd be recreating them - but then, that's your side of the argument, isn't it?).

A spirit could simply be an accidental projection, or it could be a sentient psy imprint made at the moment of death. Either is possible, in Cera Bella.

One of the important things to do when debating is to avoid dismissing hard facts with non-facts, as it makes you look foolish. It's a good idea to check before doing so - as in the case of the reappearance of spirits.

It is entirely possible that Craig added an alternate theory to provide an alternate explanation, and this isn't foolish, because many people would prefer an alternate explanation to spirits. Believing in either is a choice, disagreeing with you is not 'foolish'.

Thank you for your understanding.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing those who disagree with you to holocaust deniers and global warming deniers.

It seems to me that your point is that people are in denial about spirits being dead people, so let's convince them otherwise by saying that spirits are created by psy powers?!

There is no convincing some of these people.  It is impossible to argue with someone who choose to ignore the existence of evidence that proves them wrong.  They act like holocaust deniers and some global warming deniers.  When the facts say something they don't agree with, they choose to believe the facts were falsely created by conspirators.

We are arguing with your evidence (Such as it is; one highly suspect book). Not denying its existence. In any case, your argument that the spirits being dead people is unlikely is confounded by the existence of psy powers in Cera Bella - which are also rather unlikely. Games such as this require a suspension of disbelief.

Our replies are not stubborn and irrational, as we are drawing on evidence. I can only surmise that you have an irrational bias against the possibility that spirits are dead people which is forcing you to recycle the evidence you possess, rather than concede that an equal possibility exists and it is a matter of choice. People like you - people who are uncomfortable with the concept of the spirits being dead people - is likely the reason the aforesaid alternative exists.

If you view your previous posts from the objective perspective you idolize, you will realize that this is a mostly civil argument interspersed by your rudeness and increasingly incoherent arguments.

Before criticizing another for direct criticism of yourself, recall that you did just compare them to a holocaust denier.

I'll just quote myself.

Again.

[SmartyPants]

Your entire quote lacks evidence of anything.  Your quote is full of irrelevant statements like "Spirits return, as when you return to the cellar the spirits have returned," and your inconsequential argument that you don't believe any of the Crypt books.

Look, I too can quote random things I wrote:

It frankly ridiculous to think Craig would intentionally make a book that has false information into the reward for completing Crypt 4.
Of all crypt 4 books, The Spirit Within was the one Duvalier deemed worth reading.  Duvalier is educated and intelligent enough to identify a phony or bias book.  The TRPG2 Hero and Anya were able to identify the bias in the book that Festus lended Anya, and Duvalier would be able to do the same.  Since Duvalier found no bias in The Spirit Within, then the obvious conclusion is that it is a credible source.