Post your theological argument here.

[cyso]

What of people that don't know that what they are doing is wrong, and just survival? A man steals a loaf of bread from a baker. The baker sees that the man has violated a part of the baker's moral code, but the man has a different moral compass. The baker sees comdemnation in store for the man, but the man sees only the bread. No sin, right?

Yes, there is definitely sin. People have morals built into them. While they may justify or excuse themselves in their mind, they still violated their moral code. They are just ignoring it. While they may be desperate, they would know that stealing is wrong. Turning a blind eye to your sin doesn't make it go away.

But what can perfect people say about their moral state?

There are none.

[ArtDrake]

What of people that don't know that what they are doing is wrong, and just survival? A man steals a loaf of bread from a baker. The baker sees that the man has violated a part of the baker's moral code, but the man has a different moral compass. The baker sees comdemnation in store for the man, but the man sees only the bread. No sin, right?

Yes, there is definitely sin. People have morals built into them. While they may justify or excuse themselves in their mind, they still violated their moral code. They are just ignoring it. While they may be desperate, they would know that stealing is wrong. Turning a blind eye to your sin doesn't make it go away.

But what can perfect people say about their moral state?

There are none.

No. That is incorrect. No one has morals built into them, however much we civilized people would like to think so, in hopes of seeing people stealing from us in hell. But the fact is, no one has morals built in. They have to develop them through feedback by society. I reflect back upon my actions as a child, and I did things I wouldn't do today; as soon as I was reprimanded by an adult for them, I stopped. This is how things are. Surely you remember your own early childhood?

And about you "no perfect people" thing. What would Jesus say if asked about his moral state, to avoid sinning?

[bugfartboy]

1)So there was a Jesus now huh?
2)Jesus is and was the only one who can claim to be perfect. He was God Himself in human form.

[ArtDrake]

So claiming he's perfect would not have been pride?


And no, I don't acknowledge it. I am simply using hypotheticals to learn about your religion. I find your church's view of sin different than I might have expected, and I am glad that you are informed about your religion so you are able to tell me about it.

Don't expect me to convert, though...  ;)

[cyso]

Yes, you do gain feedback to your morals from outside influences, but you also have morals to start with. For example, a little kid will still complain that something is "not fair" if someone does something obviously wrong around them even if they have little to no experience with that kind of stuff. I don't remember that much of myself at an early age, but I do remember that when I did something wrong, I knew it was wrong because it felt wrong, like an instinct would feel. Now, I don't get those feelings as strongly and as often. Morals can be influenced by outside sources, just like a compass can be influenced by magnets.
By the way, if a person was perfect, they could say that they were perfect when asked without being guilty of pride, because they are just telling the truth. It would be pride if they showed it off a lot.

[bugfartboy]

It would not have been pride. He was born in a frickin' cave, he could have told King's to bow to him and they would have no choice but to obey him, and he could have simply said no to dieing. He was anything but filled with pride. He was humble. He prayed to the Father constantly (and at one point he was praying so hard that he cried blood). If he were to say he was perfect, it would be because it is the absolute truth. The devil literally tempted him for 40 days straight. And by the time the devil had run out of tricks, He had not faltered.

[cyso]

When you are king of the universe, it is somewhat hard to be proud. It is definitely humble to step off your thrown, mingle with your creation, and die at the hands of your creation.

[bugfartboy]

Though honestly, Jesus didn't die at the hands of His creation. He willingly gave up his spirit.

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

And some believe that to conquer death, he spent the three days he was dead in Hell. It would make sense since he has the key to death and Hell.

I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

[cyso]

Well, true, but he did suffer a lot at the hands of his creation.

[bugfartboy]

I know. He was beaten, his clothes were gambles over, he was hung next to robbers, he was verbally abused, and they had put a crown of thorns on his head. That's a lot to take from your own people.

[ArtDrake]

Yogc. I cannot believe you think that we are born with morals; if you ever thought something was "not fair", it is because the human brain is brilliant at extrapolation and pattern recognition. If one is disenfranchised from birth, one will see that others are recieving treatment they are not, and feel anger at the ones disenfranchising them, for the reason of they not having a (understandable and visible) reason for treating them differently. Humans have instincts, and want to be part of a pack, or a social group. If they are excluded, this is a denial of their instinct. These are two reasons unfairness is known after a time, even without prior knowledge.

[cyso]

You haven't mentioned the second part of my response. Morals are like an instinct that can be overpowered by feedback over time. When I was young, I could easily tell if something was right or wrong because of an internal feeling.

[bugfartboy]

And you did too, Ducky. But you try to hide it with your long winded and somehwhat redundant explanations.

[The Holy namelesskitty]

You haven't mentioned the second part of my response. Morals are like an instinct that can be overpowered by feedback over time. When I was young, I could easily tell if something was right or wrong because of an internal feeling.

No you could tell if something was mean or nice .

[ArtDrake]

Stop trying to force your belief and your sin upon me. I don't believe that there is any "good or bad" gut instinct. It's all feedback.

By the time that you were at the age where you could remember your childhood, I think that you would have learned a certain amount of "right" and "wrong".

And as a side note, would it be wrong to lie to save someone's life?

Nazi: "Are you keeping Jews secret?"

You: "Of course I am, Herr soldier. I would not sin and lie."

Nazi: "To the camps with all of you!"