Abortion

[ArtDrake]

So....

you missed my saying "want to have a child?" If the woman does not wish to have the child, then abortion must be made an option.

If, however, she sees it as her solemn duty to bear the child, that desire completely trumps any health detriments or social situations.

I am pro-choice; I simply was pro-choice a bit aggressively right then.

[Deagonx]

If she doesn't want to have a baby, she shouldn't be having sex?

It has it's risks. Why should someone lose their chance to live because of it?



But really, this is more or less a decision of morality. You say that I should let people do what they want, but I want to stop it because it's my belief it is a life being taken.

[SmartyPants]

Deagonx think everyone shouldn't have access to abortions, because too many people want it for reasons you don't like.

*Sorry Kim, you have to go through a pregnancy that will probably kill you, because Deagonx says no exceptions.
*Sorry Jill, you can't have an abortion after your father raped you.  Because Deagonx doesn't allow abortions for anyone, you have to raise an inbreed baby even though you are a broke sixteen-year-old.
*Sorry Mary, even though you have AIDs and a pregnancy will inhibit your ability fight the disease, you still have to give brith to an HIV infected baby, because Deagonx thinks you need to be punished for having a condom break during sex.

Deagnox, can still say that there shouldn't be any exceptions that allow abortions?

[Deagonx]

Deagonx think everyone shouldn't have access to abortions, because too many people want it for reasons you don't like.

*Sorry Kim, you have to go through a pregnancy that will probably kill you, because Deagonx says no exceptions.
*Sorry Jill, you can't have an abortion after your father raped you.  Because Deagonx doesn't allow abortions for anyone, you have to raise an inbreed baby even though you are a broke sixteen-year-old.
*Sorry Mary, even though you have AIDs and a pregnancy will inhibit your ability fight the disease, you still have to give brith to an HIV infected baby, because Deagonx thinks you need to be punished for having a condom break during sex.

Deagnox, can still say that there shouldn't be any exceptions that allow abortions?

I worry that with one exception people will push for more. So, I choose to go with the option I see to be more moral. No abortions.

[ArtDrake]

If she doesn't want to have a baby, [should she be] having sex?

[Intercourse?] has [its] risks. Why should someone lose their chance to live because of it?

But really, this is more or less a [moral decision]. You say that I should let people do what they want, but I want to stop it because it's my belief [that a life is] being taken.

First question: sure. Not everyone is a Bible-belt Christian, and not everyone thinks that chastity and abstinence are the only way. In fact, somewhere between 88% and 99% of Americans don't. Your judgement is not important to the law, and as it is determined by your religious background, it cannot reasonably be incorporated into law.

Second question: I agree that intercourse has its risks. However, we must do the best we can to minimize those risks; an undesired baby is one of them, so we simply abort the lengthy process of making a baby before it really starts.

Third point: this is America, land of the free, home of the brave. If we can't all agree that something is forbidden, it is allowed. You, in turn, have the freedom to choose not to abort any baby you may have.

[Deagonx]

You have the freedom to choose not to abort any baby you may have.

What you just said to me is the equivalent of "You have the freedom to not kill people. But don't judge others for wanting to."

so we simply abort the lengthy process of making a baby before it really starts.

It starts with intercourse. Protip, only humans and orangutans have sex for pleasure. Outside of us and monkeys sex is something purely for reproduction. Why is it wrong for me to want to save lives by banning abortion?

Your judgement is not important to the law, and as it is determined by your religious background, it cannot reasonably be incorporated into law.

You say that like the only people who disapprove of abortions are religious.

[ArtDrake]

What you just said to me is the equivalent of "You have the freedom to not kill people. But don't judge others for wanting to."

It starts with intercourse. Protip, only humans and orangutans have sex for pleasure. Outside of us and monkeys sex is something purely for reproduction. Why is it wrong for me to want to save lives by banning abortion?

You say that like the only people who disapprove of abortions are religious.

First: nope! What I said is that since you're a male, you don't get to make that decision. And you also have the freedom to judge women for their decision to abort! It's America, remember?

Second: wouldn't it make more sense just to ban recreational intercourse?

Third: no, I say it like you only disapprove of abortions because you're religious.

[Deagonx]

1. You said nothing about me being male. You said I have the freedom to not abort, and that others should be allowed to. In turn I say "I have the freedom to kill people, but don't judge me for doing so."

2. No one will stand for that. And it would happen anyways. We have to be realistic here.

3. That's not true.

[ArtDrake]

First point: I'm sorry. I guess it was a bit subtle. You see, I said that you have the freedom to abort any baby you have. That implied that, since you are male and cannot have a baby, you cannot make the decision.

Second: you think so? But don't you think that you're making exactly the same change if you try and get abortions banned? Recreational intercourse will become a lot more hazardous; there'd be no way out of having a baby!

Third: hmmm... where did you say that you had gotten that idea that the soul is attached to the body at conception? Oh, that's right -- your religion.

[Deagonx]

1. The male plays just as much of a role in reproduction, also this isn't about my gender.

2. I do think so. And I'm not going to listen to your sarcastic rhetoric on the topic.

3. Except I said nothing about the soul. I said nothing about my religion. I kept my religion out of it. You are bringing religion into it.

[ArtDrake]

1. I beg to differ, but my point was that males don't have babies.

2. It wasn't sarcastic. Do you or do you not think that the banning of abortion would give couples who do not want children no choice but to cease recreational intercourse?

3. I'm sorry. I simply thought that you had had your ideas spoon-fed to you. Where did you learn this wonderful idea about human potential existing only after conception? Don't unfertilized eggs have the potential to be fertilized?

[Deagonx]

1. So if I were a female my point would be more valid.

2. Maybe. But that would be a good thing IMO. Isn't overpopulation a big problem?

3. Babies have brain activity, heart beats, and much more in the womb. As far as I am concerned, they should have rights equal to everyone else.

[ArtDrake]

First: nope! But you would have the right to choose not to abort any baby that you carry. That was my original statement.

Second: yes. That's why abortions are necessary; people aren't going to stop engaging in recreational intercourse.

Second and a half: so, do you or do you not think that the banning of abortion would effectively make recreational intercourse a much higher-risk behavior?

Third: but don't unfertilized eggs have the same amount of potential? You've said yourself that eating eggs is murdering baby chickens:

[C]omparing an mindless, emotionless fetus to a young child... is like saying you [have] murdered a baby chicken every time you['ve eaten] eggs.

... [Y]ou are.

[Deagonx]

1. Once again, what you are saying is the equivalent of "If you don't people to be killed, don't kill people"

2. Overpopulation fixes itself in nature. And I'm sure many girls would stop having intercourse if they knew they couldn't have an abortion.

3. They have the same amount of potential to live. But chickens will not have as sentient an existence, or as big an impact on the world.

[Steelfist]

1. The male plays just as much of a role in reproduction, also this isn't about my gender.

I had to do a double take when I read this.

The male merely initiates the process, and the act of doing so is enjoyable. The female, while also involved in the (usually) enjoyable initiation: Suffers morning sickness (This is frequently debilitating), bears the child for nine months (Cravings, mood swings, increase in size and consequent decrease in self esteem, etc) - and is also subject to various social problems (Rumours, stares, y'know; generally being vilified) if the pregnancy is somehow unusual (Rape, incest, underage,etc), then finally childbirth; reputedly an agonising experience. And then, there is the emotional enslavement of the maternal instinct.

The male experiences nothing more that a short period of pleasure and perhaps some guilt on inflicting this on the female.

How, precisely, do these two experiences compare? and how, in the name of your mononic deity, does the male play an EQUAL PART?

What right do you, a male, have to tell the true victim that they cannot cut short the horrifying experience of an unwanted pregnancy?