Post your theological argument here.

[Duskling]

"Who do you really want to believe? Me, or your own lying eyes?" to which I say that I will trust my eyes thank you very much, and if they lie, you made them lie.

To which religious people would say something along the lines of, "To test you, to see if you truly believe in the Lord." Being religious is not wrong, and is not a crime, in fact, many rulers or presidents were faithful, so it cannot be a crime, simply a way of life, a belief, and, most likely, there is nothing we can do to change that belief, for that would be changing their way of life, and that, if not done the right, logical, gentle way, is, in my opinion, greater than any crime. However, I will say that I do not agree with religion, as we create our own destiny, and we should not fear to go to a hell for doing so, nor should we ignore science, however, morals are one thing that I can agree with religion on, but still, even atheists have morals.

[ArtDrake]

I say that if a Lord made me in such a way that I couldn't easily worship Him while maintaining faith in my own senses, He didn't really have high expectationas as far as worship is concerned.

[Duskling]

I say that if a Lord made me in such a way that I couldn't easily worship Him while maintaining faith in my own senses, He didn't really have high expectationas as far as worship is concerned.

No, in fact, He did have high expectations, God expects us to worship Him above all else, otherwise He doesn't think we trust Him enough, from what I've learned of God.

[ArtDrake]

Then God created Man wrong. He shouldn't have given him so many senses, and such good thinking skills. If he had made us right, he wouldn't have had to deal with people having any evidence to support their claims of his nonexistence. Everyone would be equally in the dark, and claims to his existence would be equallly substantial as those against. He would be on par with the rest of the worldd. And speaking of the rest of the world, I noticed that there has n't been much hellfire recently, and that if He really wanted to test our faith, He should see if His people are turly smart enough to see that the oddds are atrociously stacked against them as far as which religion to chose goes. Then all the atheists would be proven wrong, but would know that they look aat the facts only. And the theists would go to an unhappy place, because they really should know better than to waste time worshipping Him  (He's perfect, why does he need worship, instead of going out and doing good things in the world.

[bugfartboy]

He has been doing good things in the world. Just not in America. And if God is mad at us, well gee, I wonder why? He is slow to anger and quick to forgive. Look at America and you'll see a country that has lost all of the benefits that it had at it's beginning, when it was still in it's christian roots. And hellfire belongs in hell. For now anyways. But am I the only one who has noticed the weather going somewhat haywire lately? God doesn't need hellfire or fire from heaven to make his point. Many wars were prophesied to mark the end of the age and lo and behold, what do I see but war? Now, if you look only at the facts, you can't just say,"Oh wow. The earth is in bad shape! Let's just keep doing what we were and somehow the problem will fix itself by randomness."

[Duskling]

He has been doing good things in the world. Just not in America. And if God is mad at us, well gee, I wonder why? He is slow to anger and quick to forgive. Look at America and you'll see a country that has lost all of the benefits that it had at it's beginning, when it was still in it's christian roots. And hellfire belongs in hell. For now anyways. But am I the only one who has noticed the weather going somewhat haywire lately? God doesn't need hellfire or fire from heaven to make his point. Many wars were prophesied to mark the end of the age and lo and behold, what do I see but war? Now, if you look only at the facts, you can't just say,"Oh wow. The earth is in bad shape! Let's just keep doing what we were and somehow the problem will fix itself by randomness."

So... what you're trying to say is that if every single American went to church every Sunday, global warming would suddenly cease in America? If so, sorry to burst your bubble, but there will always be someone that doesn't believe in God, or at least not fully, and worshiping Him doesn't count if you don't believe, right?

[bugfartboy]

Going to church would have very little to do with it.  Church is a gathering place for believers and non alike to worship Him. I never said that if it were back on track, things would cease to go down hill. I think we've been pushing the limit and may end up like Soddom and Gommorah.

For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it."

Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.

These were some pretty sinful cities if you ask me if God destroyed them. And I think he would have to apologize to Sodom and Gommorah if he let's America keep going like this and doesn't do the same. If you read more into the chapter:

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."

And those men were:

Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

Just to let you know. And of you didn't get that: Angels. Now if homosexual gang rapes were roaming around publicly, and I'm pretty sure they are in the bigger cities in the shadows, how long until God does the same to us?

[Steel Ersatz Man]

I was actually having a nice discussion with yogc elf about the nature of sin, morals, ethics, regret, and guilt, and whether you could say that animals can feel those, too, and thus whether humans are truly different in ways other than sheer intelligence and complexity of brain.

And then you came in playing the "wouldn't you like to consider yourself part of something larger" card, to which I say

I would rather live my life believing that there is no God; I hold myself to be a rigorously scientific person, and believing in a God whose Word is:

"Who do you really want to believe? Me, or your own lying eyes?" to which I say that I will trust my eyes thank you very much, and if they lie, you made them lie.

If there is a God, all I have to say is that there just as easily could have been an Allah, or a Jewish God, or a Buddha, or Hindu god(s), or a bunch of Greek Olympians, and I would have been damned even worse if I had been Christian. I honestly say that the odds were atrociously stacked against me, with thousands of religions, most of which saying that if you pick any other, you're damned. So, O great and mighty one (godly for To Whom It May Concern), sorry, but the chances of me finding the right one out of all these charlatans are miniscule, and I am no prophet; I'd rather live life to the fullest, believing my own eyes, lying or otherwise, than play the lottery.

That is one of the reasons I became agnostic instead of Athiest. So, if there is a God, then he/she/it/they won't be as [spoiler]Warning, Profanity.[spoiler]pissed[/spoiler][/spoiler] about me not believing in them. And, if there isn't a God, then I was closer to the right answer than the rest of the population who believed in a religion. So, regardless of what the situation is, I PROBABLY won't be damned. Just another interpretation for you to think about...

[ArtDrake]

Hmm. That's good, and you don't compromise your ability to consider facts and draw conclusions unbiased.

I'm an atheist agnostic; I don't believe in a god, God, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, or anyone / thing else (this is the atheist part). There could be a god of some sort, and if there is, they're doing a good job of covering their tracks. But there's just no clear evidence for it or against it (this is what makes me agnostic), so we might as well just partake in the facts, and leave God out of it.

[bugfartboy]

Alrighty. You've attempted to shoot holes. My turn. The universe is constantly expanding. This is a somewhat known fact is it not? It must have had a beginning somewhere, right? So where if not by a being outside of time and space? (Also known as a god (or in this case, God)). And where did matter come from? Don't tell me cosmic radiation. What about the law of the conservation of mass? Matter is neither created nor destroyed in a chemical reaction. However, one outside of time and space could easily create matter, seeing as space has no hold on them, without breaking this law of nature. Does this not make sense? And where did the energy to form space and matter come from if not outside of space and time and more specifically, from a god or God?

[Duskling]

We'll bring out the atheist calling card: How did God form, of who created Him?

[bugfartboy]

If God is In existence outside of time and space, which He is, then He is unaffected by time and therefore has neither beginning or end for time has no hold over him. And as to being formed, if he exists out of space, which He does, then there is no true matter for him to consist of therefore, he needs not to have been originally formed.

[ArtDrake]

If God is outside of Time, then what the hell is He doing meddling in human affairs? He could be a couple hundred years off, even with infinitely good time-aim.

And Buggy, what did I tell you about the origins of the universe? Take it up with the philosophy department. Just because there's little certain evidence from that time period doesn't mean we should just go with a faith forcing us to disregard the practices of science and conclusions easily drawn from observable fact. It means we say "I don't know" for a bit, and try again in a bit.

My personal theory is that what started the universe fails to violate causality in the same way that white holes don't violate causality; time is equally able to go backwards.

And no, your theist mockery of science doesn't make sense. I thought you said God was immaterial; where'd He get the idea for mass? Why not just make everything in His ethereal zone? Why so many arbitrary things? Again, this is a matter of philosophy and theology, not science.

So since the answer is "I don't know" right now, can we move on from one blip to a field where there are definite, but conflicting answers?

[bugfartboy]

Simple. But I'm in a somewhat creative mood right now so I'm going tomcreate a second person narrative and upload it in a few. And I don't mock science. I believe that God gave it to us so that we could better understand the world we live in. I just don't like the fact that one crazy idiot decided to suggest that we originated from a single cell that somehow formed when we havn't been able to create life ourselves. And if it took millions of years for that to happen, wouldn't the earth and all the nasty conditions as well as necessary amino acids have cooled and dried away by then? And the fact that those necessary amino acids somehow managed to be in the same spot and somehow joined together in total randomness managed to form DNA capable of forming life? Want to know something? I have a TV in my room. But it's not just any TV, it's a science TV. So you see, I was walking through downtown a few years back and stumbled upon the junkyard. So I decided to grab a bunch of junk and throw it in a big box. Then I decided to close the lid and just carry the box around with me for days and days shaking it to no end. But then one day, several weeks after, I discovered that the rattling had stopped. So I opened up the big box and what did I find but a TV in perfect working order? So I decided to put it in my room. Nice story huh. And it's 100% true. Disclaimer: I accept no responsibility for the results of this story or this disclaimer

[Duskling]

It is no coincidence that we live on Earth, as you say, with all the necessary amino acids all conveniently here for us, it's just the fact that we're living here (sorry for that, it's just that what I meant to say is too complicated to type), Earth could support life, that's why we live here, and there must be other races out there somewhere, as the galaxy is so enormous that there is no possible way that Earth is the only planet that could support life, in fact, look at Mars, while it isn't exactly filled with forests and oceans, water was found on the planet, and where there is water, there is life.