Abortion

[Deagonx]

I am here to speak about yes, Abortion.

The argument for abortion seems to be something alone the lines of: "Its none of your business, it is the mother's choice."

And, while I have not actually talked about this topic that much, why is a fetus not legitimately considered a life? It is just in its early stage of development.

Secondly, if a woman didn't want to have a baby, why was she having unprotected sex? (Yes, I realize the circumstances of rape can go against this but that doesn't make it untrue. Because not all abortions are rape abortions. Only 1 in 100 are.)

Do any of you forumers have a child? You probably don't, but do you know someone with a small child? When you look at your child, or your friend's child, would you find it easy to tell a doctor to kill it?

And, while it is always a choice in abortion does the baby have no say in it? Who knows who he could grow up to be!

Also, it isn't like you have to keep the child if you legitimately aren't ready to be a parent, there are adoption options. (No Rhyme Intended).

I haven't thought heavily on the topic or else I would have more, but as for now that is my statement.


PS: How is abortion legal, but things like this can happen? http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/07/02/miscarriage-face-prison-time-for-murder/

[SmartyPants]

I don't really have strong believes on either side of this issue, because I see legitimate points on both sides.  I don't have the right (or the balls) to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies.  Since this a women's issue, women should be left to argue among themselves about it, while males focus on their own exclusive issues.  I do like to play devil's advocate when it comes to the abortion debate, because both sides of the issue are so polarized that both sides sounds crazy and stupid.  It is fun to mock crazy, stupid people.

Secondly, if a woman didn't want to have a baby, why was she having unprotected sex?

It is naive of you to think that one can't get pregnant from using protection.  Both condoms and "the pill" fail about 3% of the time. That means if you have sex 100 times, then you will have 3 good chances to make a baby.

Do any of you forumers have a child? You probably don't, but do you know someone with a small child? When you look at your child, or your friend's child, would you find it easy to tell a doctor to kill it?

Are you really comparing an mindless, emotionless fetus to a young child.  It is like saying you murdered a baby chicken every time you eat eggs.

And, while it is always a choice in abortion does the baby have no say in it? Who knows who he could grow up to be!

Someone probably told Hitler's mom the same thing when she considered abortion.

Also, it isn't like you have to keep the child if you legitimately aren't ready to be a parent, there are adoption options.

I am strongly for this, because both my mother and aunt were adopted.  If a pregnant 16-year-old in New York decided to had an abortion instead of giving up her baby for adoption, then neither my mother or me would be alive.

[Deagonx]

I don't really have strong believes on either side of this issue, because I see legitimate points on both sides.  I don't have the right (or the balls) to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies.  Since this a women's issue, women should be left to argue among themselves about it, while males focus on their own exclusive issues.  I do like to play devil's advocate when it comes to the abortion debate, because both sides of the issue are so polarized that both sides sounds crazy and stupid.  It is fun to mock crazy, stupid people.

Secondly, if a woman didn't want to have a baby, why was she having unprotected sex?

It is naive of you to think that one can't get pregnant from using protection.  Both condoms and "the pill" fail about 3% of the time. That means if you have sex 100 times, then you will have 3 good chances to make a baby.

Do any of you forumers have a child? You probably don't, but do you know someone with a small child? When you look at your child, or your friend's child, would you find it easy to tell a doctor to kill it?

Are you really comparing an mindless, emotionless fetus to a young child.  It is like saying you murdered a baby chicken every time you eat eggs.

And, while it is always a choice in abortion does the baby have no say in it? Who knows who he could grow up to be!

Someone probably told Hitler's mom the same thing when she considered abortion.

Also, it isn't like you have to keep the child if you legitimately aren't ready to be a parent, there are adoption options.

I am strongly for this, because both my mother and aunt were adopted.  If a pregnant 16-year-old in New York decided to had an abortion instead of giving up her baby for adoption, then neither my mother or me would be alive.

1. Still, having sex isn't just for fun it is a serious part of the reproductive process. There are always risks, and why should someone lose their chance at life because of someone who didn't want to face up to that responsibility?

2. There is significant brain activity even in the womb. And you are.

3. Hitler's mother was talked out of an abortion by her doctor. But I'm not sure that applies here.

4. You agreed with me. So :P

[Rob]

Do any of you forumers have a child? You probably don’t, but do you know someone with a small child? When you look at your child, or your friend’s child, would you find it easy to tell a doctor to kill it?

Are you really comparing an mindless, emotionless fetus to a young child.  It is like saying you murdered a baby chicken every time you eat eggs.

Most people wouldn't kill a small child because they view them as innocent people. With or without brain activity, though, a fetus is still biologically human. Even if it doesn't have all of its vital organs or extremeties developed, they are, at a cellular level, human. Their DNA makes them a unique human, meaning they are both human and innocent (definetly more innocent than most small children above a very very young age).
By the way, chickens can lay unfertilized eggs. Also, many people don't mind killing chickens for food very much, so I'm guessing they wouldn't care that much about killing a baby chicken.
Also, about this:

I don't have the right (or the balls) to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies.

The issue for me isn't what women are doing with their own bodies (even if I do think it is foolish and wrong) because sometimes, the women are the victums, not the problem. However, I do have problems with them doing something to someone else's body.

[ArtDrake]

Of course women should be allowed to have abortions. Carrying a child has extreme health risks, and complications are quite likely if childbirth is attempted at a young age. "Giving the child away" is possibly an option, but emotionally, it's like delivering a stillborn. You go through the horrible process of pregnancy and the effort of giving birth just to lose the child. While morally, canoodling at a young age is not something I condone, it's okay, and accidents happen, and instead of scarring the 16-, 17-, or 18-year-old girl or young woman with having to bear a child because of one such accident is a thousandfold more unconscionable. The stigma associated with a bulging belly while at school is awful, giving an impression of promiscuity in the youth, and the alternative of not going to school is even more unpleasant; the young woman could lose an entire year of her education!

As for you right-wing, Bible-belt, it's-a-real-child people, wake up: fish have significant brain activity during development, but roe are tasty. We don't kill baby chickens when we eat eggs, since that egg we just ate was never going to be a chicken -- it was going to be eaten, if that makes any sense to you. Embryoes have gills before they have lungs. Killing off fish-baby before it becomes a screaming, kicking, pain in the uterus for the woman that didn't even want to have a child is A-okay by me.

[Deagonx]

I understand there are some health risks, but having intercourse in all has risks. And this is not just about 16, 17, and 18 year old girls. Most abortions happen with birth control in mind. You can rave on about all the poor things that will happen to a girl during pregnancy, and while I'm not saying it WILL be awful, I don't see any reason why the person she is carrying shouldn't have a chance at life for her mistakes.

Fish may have significant brain activity during development, but they are not going to evolve into a human being. And if you look at even BORN children as a "screaming, kicking, pain in the uterus" then perhaps you shouldn't participate in a discussion about the children you hate so much.

[ArtDrake]

Yes. Intercourse has risks, and we try to prevent them. Abortion is a method by which we do so.

I'm not raving.

The embryo she carries is usually a mistake; the embryo she concieves when she actually wants a child will have a chance at life.

Embryos do not evolve into humans either. I was merely invalidating your point that concieved human embryos having significant neural activity does not mean that they are people.

I look at children who are born despite the mother's wishes as pains. The mother, for her own reason, is not ready to have a child, and yet has one. This is, from her perspective, quite a pain.

[Deagonx]

Yes. Intercourse has risks, and we try to prevent them. Abortion is a method by which we do so.

I'm not raving.

The embryo she carries is usually a mistake; the embryo she concieves when she actually wants a child will have a chance at life.

Embryos do not evolve into humans either. I was merely invalidating your point that concieved human embryos having significant neural activity does not mean that they are people.

I look at children who are born despite the mother's wishes as pains. The mother, for her own reason, is not ready to have a child, and yet has one. This is, from her perspective, quite a pain.

The death of a person for convenience. Mostly.

Yes you are.

A mistake that someone should have to own up to.

The point was that they are not mindless collections of cells.

And the child, why doesn't he get any consideration?

[Steelfist]

Before I become mired in the endless moral quagmire of this debate, I will say that I do not condone abortion as a form of birth control - Many people have sex without protection then turn to abortion as a last ditch birth control method. It's more expensive, and it brings up the aforementioned moral quagmire; it's simply not a logical solution.

Now, on to the main debate.

I am very much a 'Pro-Choice' arguer - It's none of my business what a woman does or does not do - it is their moral and ethical choice; I do not believe I have the right to tell them they cannot have an abortion (And I don't believe anybody else has that right either - apart from the individual).

However, the central crux of the matter seems to hinge on what you believe a 'Living Human' actually is. Do your research, make your own decisions - I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm just telling you not to force those views on others.

[ArtDrake]

And my seemingly rather callous point is that even if the child is a "real person" and an "individual" after conception, abortion is still completely ethical.

Also, if the mother doesn't think that the embryo constitutes a person, it's her belief, and she can choose to act on that belief.

[SmartyPants]

1. Still, having sex isn't just for fun it is a serious part of the reproductive process.

In the age of birth control, people see sex and reprodution as separate.  Even if you don't like, that is how the world works.

Most people wouldn't kill a small child because they view them as innocent people. With or without brain activity, though, a fetus is still biologically human.

Out of curiosity, would you pull the plug on someone who is brain dead?

The stigma associated with a bulging belly while at school is awful, giving an impression of promiscuity in the youth, and the alternative of not going to school is even more unpleasant; the young woman could lose an entire year of her education!

At my high school, we had four pregnant girls who didn't drop out.  Yes, they were ridiculed, but they had close friends to rely on.  I personally okay with people being ridiculed for mistakes, because it will make onlookers would be more cautious, so they don't make the same mistake.  To me, abortion does seem like the easy way out (especially for those who can easily afford it).

Before I become mired in the endless moral quagmire of this debate, I will say that I do not condone abortion as a form of birth control - Many people have sex without protection then turn to abortion as a last ditch birth control method. It's more expensive, and it brings up the aforementioned moral quagmire; it's simply not a logical solution.

I think almost everyone agrees that abortion is not acceptable form of birth control, but banning abortion for everyone doesn't sound like a good solution.  I hate nothing more then the govenment punishing everyone for the mistakes of the few.

I don't know about you, but I think people should not have kids untill they are ready to.

The abortion debate almost always comes down to what people believe at what point something is considered a person.  There are some such as the Catholic Church who believe that human life starts as sperm and unfertilized eggs, while the extreme other end believes that the baby is not a person untill it is born.  I personally believe to be human, one must have consciousness, reasoning, self-motivation, the ability to communicate, and self-awareness.

[ArtDrake]

I agree, SmartyPants, that it's a viable option for some girls to go through with the pregnancy at school, but for others, I don't think that it would be the right choice. That choice should be theirs to make.

It's strange that we agree so precisely on some issues (like drug use, teen pregnancy, and I'm sure there was a third), but have such contrasting views in other places and times. I mean, you're pretty socially liberal for such a fiscal and generally political conservative.

[Deagonx]

Also, if the mother doesn't think that the embryo constitutes a person, it's her belief, and she can choose to act on that belief.

I don't believe blacks constitute as people. It's my belief, and I should be able to act on that belief.

See how that works?

I believe they constitute as a person. So I should do my best to protect those people.

[SmartyPants]

It's strange that we agree so precisely on some issues (like drug use, teen pregnancy, and I'm sure there was a third), but have such contrasting views in other places and times. I mean, you're pretty socially liberal for such a fiscal and generally political conservative.

FWI, someone who is a socially liberal and a fisical conservative is called a libertarian.  I am a strong believer in individual rights.  The govenment doesn't need to be so involved in so many aspects of our everyones lives.

Deagonx, I don't know how to respond to the ridiculousness of your last post without insulting you, so I am going to say "No comment".

[Deagonx]

Deagonx, I don't know how to respond to the ridiculousness of your last post without insulting you, so I am going to say "No comment".

No, please do go on. I *really* would love to hear it.

(And hopefully ert can let you slide on this one)